in the places never wandered, there are many secrets there to see (part III)

(Continued from part II.)

And the last bit:

[11:45] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: right.
[11:45] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: which..strengthens what I'm saying, that the brain is the driver, in concert with other brains, building what people are thinking as distinct, something distinct, from the brain.
[11:46] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right. Which is where we can flash back to reality being a shared illusion, because our brains are agreeing on what we're seeing most of the time.
[11:46] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): But alter that brain pathing, and that perception of shared reality goes off the rails.
[11:46] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: well..here's the thing
[11:46] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you wear glasses, right?
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: simple experiment to reinforce that point
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: look at a cat, say, up close.
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: With, then without your glasses
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's different.
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: even there, you're seeing something vastly different.
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the fur, the textures
[11:48] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Sure.
[11:49] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the main point is.
[11:49] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's the brain
[11:54] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Trying to fill in the gaps if there need to be details filled in, because the brain also invents
[11:56] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes, but...again, too..this depends on what conversation one is having.
[11:56] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay
[11:58] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you disagree?
[11:59] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) grins
[11:59] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): No, brain full, considering. :D
[12:00] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Also remembering that bit after I just got glasses, after decades of apparently needing them and not having them, and coming home and yelling at the girls "EVERYTHING IS SHARP! HOW CAN YOU LIVE LIKE THIS?!"

To this day, I remember that utter shock going home with new glasses on. All the soft comforting blurs were missing. Everything was razor-edged. It was...terrifying, in a sense.

[12:04] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): The brain is capable of cold rationality, and flights of fancy, and in a weird sense, neither of those are strictly the brain's responsibility, as we've learned with research into anti-depressants and anti-psychotics: it's the chemicals the brain sits in.
[12:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes
[12:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: And that also indicates that one's "self" is malleable.
[12:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and it's a result of changes to the brain.
[12:06] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Yes.
[12:06] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): The self is very malleable.
[12:11] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: because the self is the brain
[12:11] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: feeds you popcorn
[12:11] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Are we sure of that, though? Or is the brain the machine that perceives, and the self is the stew of chemicals and electricity that feeds into the machine?
[12:11] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) noms
[12:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: there isn't a difference.
[12:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's like saying we are only hungry because of the food that goes into our mouths
[12:12] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Between the brain and, say, adrenaline? Why not?
[12:13] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Are you trying to imply that your self is contained in adrenaline? because I think you're really trying to have your cake and eat it.
[12:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: What you are saying here, as far as my interpretation goes..is that you feed something into the brain, and that is the self.
[12:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but that's another way of saying "the brain is interacting with the world"
[12:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's still the brain
[12:15] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: And we've already, I think, agreed, in principle, that what we would call self is only distinct in so much that the brain interacts with other brains..and without that interaction, the self vanishes.

So here's another stunner--does the self then exist at all? Or is it only another illusion that comforts us to hold?

[12:17] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that bag of popcorn warmed my hands up, nicely
[12:17] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) grins
[12:17] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And no, I'm not trying to have it both ways, I'm trying to figure it out.
[12:19] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: That I know too, but what you're saying, is in effect, attempting to have it both ways in practical terms, but that's just my opinion
[12:19] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So essentially, your position is, the self is only the self if it can perceive others. It dissolves otherwise.
[12:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Yes, though, perhaps it's contingent on there being a world to interact with, in simpler terms
[12:20] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay, fair.
[12:20] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And thus, in that sense, the self is essentially something that only exists in its own reflection.
[12:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Self would lose meaning without the backdrop, I suppose, is the essence.
[12:20] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right.
[12:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: sure
[12:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's best analogy might be..we only understand nothing in comparison to something.
[12:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Without something, nothing would be nonsensical
[12:21] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right.
[12:22] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So in that sense, it doesn't necessarily matter if there IS a distinction between the brain on its own, and the brain under influence of chemicals, because, those distinctions only come into play in terms of reaction to the world around it.
[12:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It would fair to say that, if by "mind is distinct" you meant that it's from the interplay between the physical, central processing center, and the world around it, playing out across life..then yes
[12:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: like a computer
[12:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you might leave a computer running
[12:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but without the interaction from outside
[12:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's processes in a closed system
[12:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: so..you revert back to complete determinism.

No input, only output, and the output restricted.

[12:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Within that framework, self is a meaningless concept.
[12:27] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So I think we're on the same page at this point?
[12:28] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: If that's how you mean it
[12:28] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But keep in mind, in my mind, that still just is.."it's the brain"
[12:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I don't see that, in this particular conversation..it as useful to say there's something beyond the brain...because that distinction is not productive to figuring the 'why' out.
[12:29] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Which I agree with now, I think
[12:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Jump up to a different level of conversation, and I'd grant the assumption as a matter of making conversation easier.
[12:29] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Just took me a bit to get there
[12:30] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: what was making it hard?
[12:39] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Preconceptions
[12:39] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Mainly
[12:40] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I am trying harder these days not to get in my own way, or if I do, to find a way to step out of my own way? But I still run into the occasional "nuh-UH" moments
[12:41] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Which preconceptions, in this case?
[12:42] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): The mind-brain preconception

And then we drifted into stimulus discussion. But still. Some fascinating things for the brain to chew over and process.