This is going to be something I do not, as a rule, do--post a full transcript of someone else's video. But I think so many of the points are important, I really wanted to share this.
So to start, this is the spoken text from
CreepShow Art's video,
Why does everyone hate Vivziepop?
"Fine, I will talk about Hazbin Hotel and Vivziepop, but not because you told me to--actually, yeah, it's only because you guys told me to.
"Hey guys, it's Shannon, and I have been getting non-stop requests to talk about Hazbin Hotel, and Vivziepop, and just throw my thoughts out into the atmosphere. Which is fine, uh, that's what this channel is really for, me just haphazardly screaming my opinions into a void, and random people I don't know telling me that they agree, and I'm a queen, or that I'm a living trash heap that they despise. That's essentially what I do online.
This bit hit home
hard for me. Because a lot of times this is exactly how I feel--I get passionate about things, I take several entries to fully explore and post them and get zero feedback. I post a toss-off "this is a weird avatar" thing, and I get people jumping on my head for being mean, or hating on whichever group they think that avatar blends in with, or in general being a baby-eating Satanist. (Yes, that's a quote. No, it's not from an SL comment. I have been called a baby-eating Satanist twice in RL. I remain baffled as to why.
"But there's only one heaping, ginormous issue with this: and that is the fact that I have no friggin' idea who the frig Vivziepop is, or was. (Actually, it's just 'is' because it's not like she's dead; I just don't know her, is what I'm saying.) I don't really know who she is, I don't know what she really does, I don't know anything about her, and I don't know her favorite color, and, like, all of that is basic information that I need to have to form a definite opinion on someone, and what they do and how they are.
"So basically, when I started getting requests to talk about her, when I started this journey that is this video, I was a blank [f**king} slate. And luckily for me, that did not last very long. You see, the internet has two, TWO, very large, differing opinions on Vivziepop. One, is that she is a crazy talented young artist, who's just trying to make her way in the world, and the other, is that she is the personification of a devil, she is a terrible, evil woman who will stop at NOTHING to destroy this world. Which is great, and awesome, and amazing, and completely and entirely unhelpful for me forming an opinion on her.
I agree. I'll note at this point that
I had no idea who Vivziepop was, until I started doing idle Google searches whilst listening to Shannon speak. Turns out, about two years ago there was some underground buzz about a show featuring a hotel in Hell, and it looked quirky and fun and interesting, and then...well,
TWO YEARS went by, everyone forgot! I didn't even know the pilot had finally
launched until those side searches turned up. (The pilot aired on October 29th, by the way. So I likely wouldn't have noticed
anyway because I was hip-deep in haunts then.)
"I also feel like that's the internet's opinion on everyone, by the way? Like, literally there is never anyone online tweeting about how they're neither here nor there for a person, that they think the person's fine, and it's okay. They're either full-on fan-camming that person, and saying stan Gerard Way for clear skin under-[f**king] tragedies, or they are posting three page long Twitter threads on every reason why this person is terrible, and anyone who likes them is terrible by default, and that they should DIE.
This. Oh, so very much this. It's actually been an ongoing trend for about the last five years--basic civility lessening, genial social discourse being replaced by screaming matches, the gradual, "they're on the other side so they're not like
US, they're not
HUMAN like we are!" thinking becoming ossified into steel-trap brains. But of late, it's become
real obvious online, especially on Twitter, which has largely gone from cheery social interchange and international connection service, to toxic waste dump we have to put on the haz-mat gloves to venture into. And a lot of the reason for that is this obstinate, ossified mindset on every side. "This person is
EVIL and
BAD and kicks puppies out of orphanages, and thus is Satan and needs to die immediately, and if you support him at
ALL you'll be next against the wall when the revolution comes." "This person is
AMAZING and
INCREDIBLE and made of good and win and thus has been touched by God and we are unworthy to touch her feet and if you say anything even
SLIGHTLY out of bounds about her I will take a chainsaw to your face." It's too extreme. There's no middle ground left.
"It's like that thing where you go to Amazon and you're trying to buy a toaster so you can make--I almost explained to you what you would make in a toaster, but, like, toast, duh, you get it, my brains are fried, I'm sorry. But like, you want to buy a toaster on Amazon, and you go to the reviews, and there's one person who's like, 'FIVE stars, this toaster cured my depression, got me a husband, and I have sex with this toaster every night. Ten out of ten, fantastic lover, would recommend.' And then there's a one star review right under it, talking about how the toaster stole her husband, her kids are now calling the toaster Mom, and she hates the toaster. Ruined her life, would destroy if she could.
"Vivziepop is the toaster here. Vivziepop essentially is a little toaster strudel that everyone either fucking loves, or hates, and nobody is neutral, and I can't figure a diddly darn thing out. And I feel like honestly, that's just the internet, you see this kind of trend now, where if someone dislikes someone else, they are just the most problematic person in the world and they have, like, list upon list upon list on why this person should be canceled, and all it really amounts to is this person made a very human mistake a couple years ago. This person got angry, and did something that they probably now regret. It's like, great. And I'm not saying that no one online has ever done anything wrong, and no one online has ever [f**ked] up, and no one's allowed to not like people, that is not what I am saying. I know that people are flawed, and it's inevitable for something to happen to make other people not like them. I know that. Not everyone's gonna vibe on the same level with other people, and it's fine. That's a real thing. I've felt it before, you've [f**kin'] felt it before, you're lying if you haven't...We all just kind of wait around for a person we don't vibe with, or don't like, to give us a reason to not like them, and right when we do, we just kind of pounce on it, like cute little baby mice, eatin' [f**kin'] cheese. As they do.
The other thing I've noticed? A lot of people
seem fairly stable, at least on the surface, and will come off as essentially rational sorts--until someone steps up and says a thing. And then it's chaos. Half will be in utter slavish support of X, half will be in utter frothing disregard of X, and the clashes have gotten violent. People have died. (Look up
Heather Heyer. Or the innumerable incidents where
swatting has resulted in injuries and deaths. The first was just because the yahoo behind the wheel wanted to hurt people more than he wanted to calm down, and the latter is generally because someone won an FPS game that person wanted to win. It's so...petty.)
"A great example of this, is take what happens with Sashly, literally every month or so. I am not a fan of Sashly, I don't know their content, I don't watch anything they've ever done. I wouldn't even say I know who they are. But I watch content of people who talk about her, and it's [f**king] WILD how people treat this literal child online. Like, there is a creator who is literally fourteen, who people want to call every name in the book, because she acts like a creator who is fourteen years old. She is FOURTEEN, and people are having post threads about why she is the worst person in the world, and I'm just sitting there like, that's a CHILD, guys!
"People often forget that pretty much until you were about twenty-five, your mind is in a constant state of flux, and you are constantly learning, and changing, and growing into yourself. People act like who are and what you posted when you were thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, like, that represents you for the entirety of your life. And that you're going to stand by it to the end of the world. And you aren't gonna be and act like a hormonal person who is being ravaged by puberty and how terrible that [sh*t] is. Literally, back when I was fourteen, I was writing a story, a full-on, thirty page story, about being in love with Gerard Way, and made up an entire life where me and Gerard were together, and yes, at some points, that story did get steamy. Now, some part of my very stupid teenage hormone-fueled brain knew that I shouldn't share that story with the world, because I would be made fun of until the cows come home, and also, you know, it's just embarrassing. I knew [if] people read that and were like, Shannon made that, it would be embarrassing for me. But I always feel like now, if I had made the mistake of uploading that to fanfiction.net, then that story would be used TODAY to expose me in some way. Like, my puberty fanfiction and fan art of me with an adult man (that I was in love with because I was a hormone addled teen going through puberty), that would be used to expose me as a [f**kin'] adult. Which is the STUPIDEST thing ever, like, some stupid thing I did when I was young is gonna be brought up as a reason to hate me now? Even though that story was written by a girl who just wanted to be liked by a guy with cute long hair?
Putting aside the fanfic angle--I think enough of us, me included, have written fanfic that we fully understand why it would be embarrassing to find, years later--let's just talk about the war between generations is heating up, too. I mean, there was always a divide, there always will be, but at this point, it's like literally screaming over a wall.
"Okay boomer" versus "Millenials are lazy", and every generation in between.
"Even saying that, I feel like someone's gonna watch this video right now and be like, Shannon just admitted to making smut with a minor in it. Send! Her! To! The! Ranch! Like, I feel like that's gonna happen on this video. And you know what? Okay. The ranch has horses, I wanna pet a horse.
"People also have a tendency to overextend nowadays, when they talk negatively about people online, because where you would say before, oh, I don't like Viv because she made weird, not-safe-for-work art that made me uncomfortable when she was younger? Now you would say 'She clearly believes in bestiality and zoophilia, and she thinks that's all sanitary and good, and she DEFINITELY practices that in her real life, and if I see anyone talking about her positively in any way, shape or form, I'm gonna leave a [sh*tty] little Twitter reply saying that you support someone who would have sex with an animal', even though drawing that does not equate with that at all.
"After I got plenty of requests to make this video, I posted about this on Twitter, trying to get a real good feel, a little touch, about why people do not like her. Because I wanted to hear, straight from the horse's Twitter, why people rage against the machine that is Vivziepop. And most of the responses I got were fair, and neutral, and normal. And then the Fire Nation [f**kin'] attacked. And I got so many angry responses that I had to delete it. But I'm going to read you one of the more neutral ones explaining their side, and explaining why they don't like her. Back when she was nineteen, she made various images depicting pedophilic and zoophilic imagery. So let's start there. No, that is not the whole tweet, it's just part one, it's gonna take a while.
"First off, no, she didn't make any pedophilic imagery. She drew two characters, one of which was eighteen, the other of which was nineteen, meaning both characters were above the legal age of consent, and is in no way pedophilic. There's another drawing of an adult being creepy to a child character, but straight up, it seems like it was a dumb joke that she thought was funny at the time, and I know, look, that's exactly how she explained it. It was a dumb joke that she thought was funny. She doesn't think it's funny now. She regrets it. She apologized for it. If you're going to say that she is a pedophile, and hold her to a standard that a joke now makes it impossible to be a fan of hers, and a joke makes her that label, you better have the same energy when talking about Shane Dawson, or Tyler Oakley, or essentially all of 2007 YouTube creators, because they all were making those jokes.
Yeah, if animating furries is bestiality now, 60% of Second Life is going under.
"She also hired a known sexual abuser and accused abuser onto Hazbin Hotel. So, I don't know if this is supposed to be two separate people, or if she's saying that this person is both a known abuser, and an accused abuser, but those two kind of, you know, it doesn't work like that. But because there's only one person on the roster for the show that I know has been accused of abuse, I'm going to assume that that is what they meant. Which makes no sense, because she is stating in the same sentence that this person is also terrible, known, and there is proof of it, and everyone knows it, and it's a fact, and also that this person has only been accused of abuse. So which is it? Are you fighting that there's physical proof out there, that this person has done this? Are you saying he's only been accused of this?
"Actually, I know which one you're saying, seeing as there's only one person on the roster that's been accused of abuse, and there's no actual proof that it's happened, and it hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And I've actually talked about this a lot in my time on YouTube, but just because someone was accused of doing something, just because someone stated that someone hurt them, that does not make it true. To say as much is to also say that no one has ever gone on the internet and lied, and that's incredibly short-sighted.
As she touches on below, I think it is incredibly important to validate victims' experiences, and to support them, but...as painful as it is to type...she's not wrong. Not all men are guilty, not all women are truthful, and if we believe in these monochromatic definitions, we lose a lot of depth in the eventual conversations.
"While it's really nice to say that you want to believe all victims, and you want to believe all women, that actually doesn't work in the real world. Because you are diminishing a woman's capacity to lie, and her agency to do so. You are actually saying women do not have the mental capacity to be dubious, and they do. Do we know if the person she hired (whose name I am NOT going to say, because I don't want to label him as an abuser, when I don't have any proof, other than accusations) is an abusive [pr*ck]? Conclusively, no, we don't. Do we know that he isn't one? No, we don't. But it's innocent until proven guilty, and because we can't say for sure, should we all collectively [sh*t] on someone who simply gave that person a job? No, we shouldn't. Let's continue.
"There have been several cases of her cyberbullying, and encouraging her fans and friends to bully others. Along with that, many see her to have a really rotten and immature attitude, especially when it comes to criticism, and the fact that she refuses any and all, and often paints any person who criticizes her as being haters, and on a few occasions, has gotten her fans and friends to harass people who try to give her critique and constructive criticism. Now, this, THIS is something I can actually understand. I am friends with a creator whose name is Miss Zi-Zi, who is a sincerely wonderful person, and a fantastic artist, and you should all go subscribe to her...She made videos critiquing Vivsie before, and in those videos, she of course made jokes, but she was incredibly insightful, and made a lot of constructive criticism. And when Vivsie saw it, she kind of snapped at her. Which is in her right to do, but it does come off as bratty and rude.
As
Catu Draws pointed out in the comments to Shannon's video,
Say it with me. Criticism is NOT telling someone “I don’t like how you drew that.”
It’s “You could improve this drawing by doing...”
And they're absolutely right. But it does seem largely that Vivziepop, like Anne Rice before her, refuses any and all criticism at times. And maybe it's because it's being presented with the hostility of a thousand mongered rumors. I can't honestly tell. But it seems from what little I turned up, that even the most well-meaning phrasing gets kicked to the curb as fast as a "You suck, die" line.
"And I get it, when you are a creator, especially an art creator, you kind of set yourself up to be [sh*t] on by everyone, because they have eyes, and they want to tell you how terrible you are. So someone sees your art and decides they are going to tell you that is the worst thing that they've ever seen, and that you suck and everything you try to do. And it only gets worse the more popular you get. It can be frustrating because maybe they are talking about a piece that means a lot to you, and maybe you worked so [f**king] hard on it, you just wanted people to like it, and say that they like it. That [sh*t] is rough, and annoying, and sometimes you see it and you get a bit [b*tchy]. It happens. And people are fine for not liking her for that reason, because you have so much success, it comes off bratty if you [b*tch] at someone who simply criticized you. But this is the first real reason given for people not liking her that I think stands up. The first reason that actually works as an argument, versus everything else that was stated. And if I was given this argument only, as I was with various other comments, I wouldn't have made this video. If the majority of people who don't like Vivsie only commented on the fact that they find her to be a bit bratty and they don't like how she holds herself, then cool, awesome, great, we can vibe on that point.
"But don't lump in that she supports blackface, that she is racist, she is transphobic, she's made inappropriate art of minors, she supports men who abuse women, she's evil in every sense of the word--that to me doesn't fly. Because that's wildly, wildly overstepping. Now that, again, was not the only comment I got that painted Viv in a negative light. Oh, no no no no no no. That was probably one of the most well-written ones without telling me to kill myself, or that I'm supporting a child predator; that was one that, you know, didn't deliberately threaten my life in any sort of way, and I loved it. I love angry comments that make no sense, but literally me asking someone why they are hated, me asking about that, looking for clarity, that's enough to get someone to try to send [sh*t] on me. That's ridiculous. Oh, I literally just got one. Oh, my god, it's threatening, it's threatening my husband. Great. I would love to see you try to hurt my husband, you absolute moron. [F**king] Jesus Christ.
And by the same extension, if you find someone who's asked a question about why everyone is hating on X, don't answer them with death threats. That's severely uncool. And it makes you sound insane. Just answer them as politely as you can. They may
GENUINELY not know what's up, and you could be the calm and rational voice they'll remember in years to come, who told the truth without threats, without condescension, without acid rancor.
Not exactly a case in point, but a sidewise corollary: dear friend of mine asked who
PewDiePie was. And my jaw fell off. I knew my two choices in that moment were, are you stupid, everyone knows who PewDiePie is...and to answer him honestly with a brief series of comments. I chose the latter.
But I easily
could have gone with the first. It is so,
so very easy not to think before we speak. And yeah, it's also a pain to constantly monitor what emerges from our face holes, because sometimes talking is a lot like breathing and we forget we can actually control it.
"Well, let's continue, though, because as that comment did list a lot of reasons why people have issues with Vivsie, it didn't go over everything. There's also a thread on Twitter that talks about Viv and Hazbin Hotel, and comically censors the name, which is very strange to me. I don't know why you're doing that. And I was going to go through it point by point by point, but then a fantastic creator by the name of What the Cheick, I think is pronounced, I don't know, made a video the other week about it and it's fan-friggin-tastic. I have that video linked in the comments down below, and in the description down below, and I highly suggest you go check it out. But I did want to briefly touch upon the other claims that What the Cheick didn't go over in their video, and those are the claims that Hazbin Hotel is homophobic, racist and evil, because I've been seeing that quite a lot. I got a lot of comments saying that that's the case. Which is astounding, because there's literally two gay, female leads in a relationship, which was made clear at the beginning of the episode, and neither of them is putting up any sort of gay stereotype, and I just, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, guys, I just don't. If you haven't watched the show, it's about Charlie, the daughter of the devil, who is wanting to make a hotel that rehabilitates demons and sinners, because she is tired of angels coming down from heaven, and killing them every year. She wants to help the population of Hell be better, and earn their way into Heaven. And with the help of her girlfriend, Vaggie, I guess her name is, she sets upon doing it. So you have nice, well-meaning protagonist, who also likes to break out into song randomly, and has a really sunshiny disposition, despite the fact that she lives in literal Hell. That is a fun romp-a-roony of a cartoon, that has a great premise, and though I didn't really, like, I just think it's okay, I can see why people like it.
"And it's even more fun because in the world where this sunshiny protagonist is, in the world surrounding this girl, everyone's fucking terrible. Everyone else, except Vaggie I guess, because she seems like a genuinely pleasant and protective person, and is really cool, I don't know why she has an X on her eye, but whatever, she seems cool. So you have these two nice people, these two people you actually want to root for, in Hell, trying to make everyone who is bad and likes being bad better, that's [f**cking] great. But apparently, people didn't understand that it's set in Hell? And in order for a show like that to work, you have to make everyone in Hell be terrible people? Like apparently, that didn't cross anyone's mind, and they didn't realize that that would be a thing that would have to happen, because the moment that a character, someone who was set up to be a literal antagonist, who works as a news reporter in Hell, said that she doesn't touch the gays, everyone shit themselves. Everyone started screaming that that was homophobic, even though in my perception, that's, like, probably why she ended up in Hell? Like, it's not saying, look at this nice homophobic character, don't we love her? It's saying, look at this character who's in Hell, oh, she's homophobic? Makes sense, that's probably why she's in Hell.
I freely admit, I don't get this angle on the protests. Why do viewers expect demons to be good? Why do viewers expect Hell to be a pastoral nature reserve? It's like watching the show
Lucifer and being shocked and horrified when he tempts someone. It's
in the name.
"You know? Like, i-it's why she's an antagonist! I don't know how this joke went over peoples' [heads], and how they're interpreting it as, like, oh no, oh no, that's--she's a good character, and we sh--all are trying to root for her, right? And I, I'm, I don't, I don't, I don't know what got lost in the sauce, but boy, did it get lost. I, not kidding, I got a literal DM that Viv hates gay people because of this line, and I just, I just, I, I don't know what to do! I don't know how to explain what a joke is, better!
"There are also people commenting that Charlie's girlfriend Vaggie was a terrible person and is terrible representation because she was angry in the first episode? Even though, in my viewpoint, the show gave her a very good reason to be angry? And in that scene, at least to me, it doesn't show her in a negative light. Like, one character just ruined their chances of being taken seriously. He made them look terrible on live television, and instead of standing up for herself and what she believes in, Charlie just sat there and did nothing. So Vaggie stands up for her girlfriend. If anything, it shows her in a great light, and I related to that, because that's me.
Kind of me too, on both sides. I have trouble standing up for my own person a lot of the time, but come after someone I'm loyal to, and I go feral. Generally to everyone's detriment, including my own. But I get Vaggie's anger--she thinks Charlie's a bit of a soft touch, and she's insanely innocent considering who her father is, but she'll be damned again if anyone will hurt her and get away with it.
"Then, there's the character of Angel Dust, who is a gay porn star named after drugs, does drugs, and revels in violence. People are saying that he's bad gay representation because he's hyper-sexual, and also a demon. He acts like a demon.. He's hyper-sexual because he's a porn star. He's a bad person because he's in Hell and is a demon. Like, the show went out of its way to explain why this character acts that way, even though it didn't, it didn't have to, 'cause once again, literal demon. And literal Hell. And people are upset, and I'm, like, I don't know what you wanted from a literal demon in Hell, but if you wanted them to be a good person, I don't know why they would be in Hell! I just, I don't, I don't, I don't get it, I don't understand. It would make less sense if she wrote him as a nice, uwu, good boy, because he...is in...Hell. And therefore, his worst attributes, his worst tendencies, are going to be on full display. They're gonna be cranked up to eleven. She's not saying that all gay people are like this. She's literally having a gay couple be like the most nice representation on this show, this is nothing like that. I don't, I don't know, I feel like something got lost in the sauce, and people were like, this show about demons being in Hell is gonna have the best characters who are just uwu so good, and I'm, I'm confused, I'm confused at what people thought. Again, I think the show was just okay, I thought it was fine, I don't love it, I'm not worshipping the ground it walks on. But, like, those complaints just don't make any sense to me, and I'm...here. I don't know, whatever, let me know if you guys are going to be unsubscribing to me because this problematic hot take, that the show is just 'okay', Viv isn't a literal devil, and we should all just generally care less, a little bit, about everything, and maybe take a nap? That's my hot take--take a nap, before you tell me to kill myself again, guys.
I tend to agree about Angel Dust's character as well, namely because I've
known people like that. Self-destructive to a fault, looking for the nearest exit with the shortest waiting line, zero concern for person or heart or mind that's in the way of that focused intensity towards oblivion...They're out there. They're usually broken, careless, and strangely charming, and it's a
very bad combination. But Angel Dust, people should keep in mind, is not a representation of a gay man; he's the representation of a demon who
happens to be gay. There's a
HUUUGE difference between those two portrayals.
"Anyway, I hope you guys are having a genuinely nice day, I will see you in my next video. Good night."
And that's about it. I thought her words codified some thoughts in my own head that were refusing to cohere in any identifiable form for me. So there you go. Who the talk is about, in the end, really doesn't matter; what she
says about how the internet as a whole
treats that person--or any person who becomes even vaguely controversial--does. And as the internet in no small part is a reflection of the world we bring into it, it's also a reflection of how we are treating each other, on a daily basis. Just...step back. Take a breath. Think through what you want to say. Do you
really want to say it to hurt the other person? Do you want to say it to hurt
in that way?
Consider why you want to, before you do. Right or wrong won't matter ten years down the road from this argument, but your words, if they strike home and sink deep enough, will. So...treat them with respect, your words. Try to be conscious of what you say.
I'm trying to do the same. And we're all going to fail for a long time, working back from adversarial everything. But I think it's worth the struggle.
this
and thanks for the sharing [Rxxx]
[09:37] Jxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: can we advertise the shop and hop?
why
