in the places never wandered, there are many secrets there to see (part II)

(Continued from part I.)

Picking up where we left off:

[11:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you can call part of what the brain does "the mind" if that makes it more palatable.
[11:12] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Which is fine, but something--and again, not talking soul/God/whatever--had to integrate enough beyond pure reaction to actually evolve into a different form.
[11:12] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Which we did.
[11:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but..on scientific terms, there's no difference.
[11:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: why?
[11:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's like how one might say there is a measure of free will in how complex societies react.
[11:13] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's just the brain that you're talking about..and you're calling what the brain does "the mind" as if it's a separate thing
[11:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and..for all intents and purposes, that's generally fine..but if you want to get down to the very base level..it's a different conversation
[11:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's kind of like having a question of morality, and where it comes from.
[11:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: most of the time, it doesn't really matter, people get along fine
[11:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but if you peel back the layers to it's origins, it's a different conversation
[11:15] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Morality is socially guided behavior modification for the benefit of the group over the individual.

I still believe that, but as such, I also believe that morality is mutable, according to the needs of the society. Are there some things that are always wrong? Sure, and that's a slight dissonance to the first belief, but...not the first time I've believed contradictory things, either.

[11:16] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it evolves the same way we evolve..it doesn't even need to be modification, though i'd agree it does ...a social species is going to have certain morals, naturally
[11:16] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: just like a shark, or a cat, wouldn't
[11:17] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but most people aren't perceiving it that way.
[11:17] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the mind/brain is the same, as far as I can tell.
[11:17] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's not palatable for a person to think of just the brain.
[11:18] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I honestly don't know if it's not palatable. At least, for me personally. I know that that was largely how the psych books I've read presented it.
[11:18] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): But, thinking evolves, understanding evolves, and maybe it's no longer a good working theory.
[11:19] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: well..partly is...neuroscience has.
[11:19] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and partly...there are two separate conversations.
[11:19] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: If you want to have a conversation of the reality of the brain..then it's different..and I'm not sure it's meaningful to say mind/brain. It's the brain. you call what the brain does "the mind", but it's the brain.
[11:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: In the realm of psychiatry, that might not be a meaningful thing to say, I can't say.
[11:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But..CBT, for instance, is highly useful for training people into certain good habits that combat things like depression, etc..
[11:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It can't necessarly change the brain entirely, but that reinforcement I believe has been shown to be able to change the workings of the brain, to some level.
[11:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But..again, we're talking about the brain, and what it does.
[11:22] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I don't comprehend, on that level, what you mean by mind being distinct.
[11:23] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): CBT therapy, and mindfulness practice, actually has been proven to have some beneficial physical effects, beyond just the pyschological ones. Lowered cortisol levels, lowered heart beat in some, there have been a handful of people who turned high blood pressure into normal. Not saying this is what everyone will experience, but it has been observed.

There have been some pretty radical observed reactions using CBT to lower blood pressure, for example.

[11:23] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: well...keep in mind, the psychological is..brain stuff
[11:23] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: if we're going to really get down to it
[11:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, the view is, psychotherapy is all mental/emotional work
[11:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes
[11:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Medicine on the other hand is physical work
[11:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but..at the end of the day, if you understand the brain, and why it does what it does, and what it does..
[11:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: brain stuff
[11:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): What CBT and mindfulness training exercises are showing us is that there's more of a link there than we comprehend.
[11:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Is what I'm saying.
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: link to what?
[11:25] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Between physical healing, and mental/emotional healing.
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's the same
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: That's what I'm saying
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's the brain

Third time I sat back and thought, "Bwuh."

[11:25] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that's all
[11:25] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So it's just our advancing understanding that's showing us things we couldn't perceive before
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It might be more useful to separate things, here, for purposes of doing this or that.
[11:26] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But..the hard science says "it's the brain"
[11:26] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the mental and emotional is physical, is what I'm saying
[11:26] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it might seem distinct..but I'm not sure what basis I would say that it is, under
[11:28] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Whenever I've had this conversation..it basically ends up amounting to..."the distinction is there is a distinction.." ..just said in different ways
[11:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: which circles me back to...'it is more palatable for people to make that distinction."
[11:29] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, what I'm saying is, this is the theory I knew. Willing to consider other theories.
[11:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: nods
[11:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I'm not really disagreeing, or agreeing with the theory.
[11:30] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, no, your position is beyond it.
[11:30] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I'm just saying that..it makes no sense to me. It really amounts to someone positing that "the brain named itself"
[11:32] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and the author is saying, in effect "it's more productive to talk about them as distinct, so they are distinct"
[11:33] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): There's this bit from one of the Diane Duane Star Trek books. Alien is trying to explain the plot device for the book, and she's using the allusion of an entity that had no concept of self, no concept of separation from its surroundings, at all, partially oozing through a rift in space and suddenly being confronted with wildly different modes of perception. If this happened, she asked, what would this entity first need to do? And there were a lot of answers, most of them circulating around, trying to learn the language of those it saw, trying to perceive that the people it interacted with were separate, and she shook her head.
[11:33] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: And, I honestly don't disagree..it is more productive to use different language, and not just say "neurons did it"
[11:33] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): She said no. The first step is, realizing that there is consciousness. When one has no concept of consciousness as a separate factor, one has to come to *that* realization before any other.
[11:34] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: what do you mean by consciousness?

What do I...that's a stunner. I realized that was another of my 'everyone knows this' thoughts.

[11:35] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: so...the other thing is
[11:35] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, let's take you. Lots of labels we can hang around your neck. Some valid, some misidentifying, but there's a lot. You're a named entity. You have a named species. You, in point, have a YOU.
[11:35] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: she is actually demonstrating how people get around hard determinism
[11:35] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): What if something existed that had not reached that point yet?
[11:35] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: right
[11:35] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and..this is what I was speaking of before, on how you move beyond the absence of free will
[11:36] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and how you avoid being stuck in a completely deterministic universe
[11:36] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) nods.
[11:36] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the brain changes in response to outside influences, because we don't live in a void.
[11:36] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: there are, as best we can tell, other beings around us.
[11:36] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But..again..what is changing, what is doing the processing, is the brain.
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I don't know what you mean, beyond that, by saying "YOU"
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes, me.
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: brain
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that's me
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that's what is driving
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Beyond that, I don't understand what you mean.

At this point, I wasn't sure we were on the same page, in the same book, or even in the same building, but I was fascinated.

[11:37] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Maybe this is a failure of having a language with defined sets
[11:38] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Yes, you. Brain. Driving around your meat suit. Yes.
[11:38] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes
[11:38] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): But YOU. YOUR brain. YOUR body.
[11:38] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: sure
[11:38] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but..that's the brain doing it
[11:38] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that concept of self is the brain, interacting with other distinct brains.
[11:39] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: You are defining yourself against the backdrop of other creatures being driven by brains.
[11:39] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: So, if that's how you mean consciousness..I wouldn't disagree.
[11:39] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: unless one is a hard solipsist.
[11:39] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Because the brain, on some level, at least in this current iteration of our consciousness, defines itself by separation from others.
[11:40] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: well..consider this.
[11:40] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: in the absence of others, would you be aware of yourself.
[11:40] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: "self " would have no meaning.
[11:40] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: so..what you're trying to make distinct isn't, not really. It's the brain acting against other brains
[11:41] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: so..we return...it's the brain. The mind is the brain.
[11:41] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Any distinctions are imposed by the interaction of multiple brains
[11:41] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: without those impositions, the distinction is meaningless.

So without brains implementing distinctions, all we are is reactions? I'm not sure that's what he's saying.

[11:42] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: If that's what you mean, I would agree
[11:42] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, see, that's an interesting dilemma.
[11:42] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Because we know that those who live alone, die alone, still have a perception of others.
[11:42] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: because there are others
[11:43] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So we'd have to look at recoveries from serious brain trauma, and what they said about their brains being that completely isolated from any other source of input, I guess.
[11:43] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And there's not a lot of examples.
[11:43] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the isolation is not possible, though, unless you were you going to say erase all awareness , and all memory of other people.
[11:43] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and not just that, erase that same thing from all other creatures.
[11:44] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right. It would be a savagely extreme experiment.
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: living, and dying alone, sure..but...they weren't always alone
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: And...consider the effect that even cursory isolation DOES have
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It erodes that sense of self.
[11:44] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Which is another factor. Someone who had a perception of self and other would still hold that perception.
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Or...in those suits they do, where you float in water
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: sensory deprivation
[11:44] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Oh, that we do know--solitary confinement in prison is considered a human rights violation by the UN
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you lose that sense of self, because of that isolation.

Which also means "self" is not a defined, hard construct. It's flexible. It's redefinable.

(Continued in part II.)