stumble through uncharted lands (part XIX)

(Roleplay entry. Continued from part XVIII.)

Justine paced in the command centre. "STAN, status report?"

Nothing. She looked at the console. "STAN, any more messages received at any of the relay stations?"

Nothing. She tapped the number 2 pencil against her lips. "STAN, send the autopsy report to my workstation, ASAP."

There was a harsh buzz, a burst of static, and then STAN's voice picking up mid-statement. "--and Alert. 0945 SLT. Gearhaven Prime Airship Tower reported unknown Airship over Dark Sea. It has been confirmed it is a Colossus Class Diesel Dreadnaught. Recon Confirms it is the Gray Area I. Crew is missing."

Justine whirled. "[F*ck]!"

"Interstellar Retrofit modules are not on Board. On Board AI Modules missing. The Gray Area was brought to the Gearhaven Airship Station for further diagnostics. End of Message."

Justine shook her head. "STAN, fire up my shuttle, I'm headed to the docks now. And send a message to the Duchess!" She ran.

(Continued in part XX.)

I've walked the hidden hallways, I've braved the bleakest cold (part XVIII)

(Roleplay entry. Continued from part XVII. Miss Justine wrote this one!)

Justine sat at the command terminal on Tannhäuser Station, staring into the middle distance, idly tapping the eraser end of an unsharpened No. 2 pencil on the surface of the workstation. "STAN, play that last received communication, again, please?"

Hiro's voice cut through the air, making her breath catch. "This is Gearhaven Actual, request confirmation."

"And when/where was that sent from?" she asked.

Sounding slightly bored, Stan's sullen voice replied, "Spatial: Andromeda Delta Quadrant sector 2, Temporal: 1000 BCE."

"How long ago was that picked up by the relay in Haven?"

"42 hours, 16 minutes ago."

"Stan, did Hiro leave any sort of...mission plan, or indication why he might be heading out that far?"

"No mission plan on record."

"Stan, dump Hiro’s last database access queries to my terminal. Everything." She grimaced as the data started scrolling past: mostly ancient pornography featuring someone called Jack Parsons. "Wait, stop." There, there it was.

=============================================

Justine double checked the seals on the quantum containment cube, then completed the connections between the quantum computer inside the cube and the mainframe in the fringe science section at Tannhäuser station.

"STAN, we're ready to download the last available imprint of Duke Hiro into the cube. Begin on my mark. Acknowledge."

"Confirmed."

"Mark."

Before she entered the final command to wake the virtual Duke she sent a comm out to the Duchess. It would probably be best if Emilly did the talking, considering the mess Justine had made with the replicant Duke.

Later...

Justine shivered in the cold of the necro-biology lab as the autodoc performed the autopsy, extracting and storing the sample tissues she’d requested. She watched the mechanical hands work, almost hypnotic, balletic in their precision, before her eyes were drawn back down to the corpse on the morgue table. She tried very hard not to think about the events of the previous night. There was no profit in rehashing the mistakes she had made and certainly no time to dwell on the attack that lead to the clone’s death.

Save everything worth living for first. Cry later.

"STAN, send the brain tissue samples to the quantum containment section in the fringe lab and let me know when they’re ready. I'm...going to go take a shower."

If she can use the clone brain tissue, and the quantum storage cube with the neural network containing the imprint of the Duke's consciousness, to amplify quantum entanglement between the neurons in Hiro Secundus' brain and Hiro Prime's brain...maybe, just maybe, they could solve this thing.

She hoped.

(Continued in part XVIX.)

at the bottom of a bottle, you're the poison in the wine

Conversation in the Library group tonight was...very odd:

[20:50] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: hwllo peeps

"Hello". But do go on.

[20:50] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: whats good?
[20:50] Hxxxxx Hxxx: well, "Lincoln in the Bardo" was a good read
[20:51] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: joe biden sniiftt my hair... now I have a blue checkmark on twitter

What?

[20:52] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: also I eat [a**]

WHAT?

[20:53] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I pooped my pants yesterday
[20:53] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and did a little wee today
[20:54] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: not kiddidng

"Kidding", and...WHY are you talking about this here??

[20:55] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: what's your breathalyzer reading?

That is a very good question.

[20:55] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: my friend told me you hae not lived until you poop yoursdelf
[20:55] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: pretty high

"Yourself", and...I...guess that's as good an explanation as any?

[20:56] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Closing window

There are times I wish I was wired to just do this and move on.

[20:56] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: sucks to be you
[20:56] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: r ead a book you fool

That's rich coming from you.

[20:57] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: actally pretty cool name

"Actually".

[20:57] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I read books... and eat [a**]
[20:58] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: wha ts good group chat?

Since you arrived? I'm no longer sure.

[20:59] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I feeel like a cat with no whiskers///4

What does that even mean?

[20:59] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: a cake with no wishes
[21:00] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: sucks to be me

If you say so.

[21:00] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I never thought I'd be at the point of actually muting another Library member. I'm actually tempted now.
[21:00] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: you can do it Em
[21:00] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I belive in you

"Believe". But not in yourself, as evidenced by later commentary.

[21:00] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) snickers
[21:01] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I mean, if that's a request....
[21:02] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: well I dont mind... would rather not but...

Then why bring it up?

[21:02] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: aniyways

"Anyways".

[21:02] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: rather talk about some cool [sh*t]

Because you've brought so much to the chat so far.

[21:03] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Elevate the conversation. Bring it out of the sewer, we can probably talk.
[21:03] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: different people different contenets

"Contents" or "contexts", do you mean, here? Or "continents"? It's unclear.

[21:03] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: sl is fun
[21:03] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I like to [sh*t] post

We've figured this out, yes.

[21:03] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: it breaks the ice

Does it?

[21:03] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Yeah...see, this to me says "troll"
[21:04] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: did i tell you that i eat [a**]?
[21:05] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Did I tell you that, while not specifically a strike against you, your continual bringing up things concerning your [a**] is a strike?

Because it really is.

[21:05] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Joe Biden sniffed my hair and now i am verified on twitter
[21:05] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): You said that. Now you're recycling.

Who is this idiot, and why the hell is he in a group that basically circles around erotic poetry readings and flirting with each other??

[21:06] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: kinda ironic people in this chat that dont own books

Who said that?

[21:06] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Who says?
[21:06] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: yeah soz
[21:06] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: im being a [k*nt]

No, I never would have guessed. And I'm not even going to bother spelling that correctly. But you even got that wrong.

[21:07] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Emilly
[21:08] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I thought that was the funnyest thing

"Funniest".

[21:08] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Im [sh*t]...

Well, I suppose you are what you deeply believe you are, so...

[21:09] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, let's present it from this angle.
[21:09] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): It's your choice, always, on who you want to be.
[21:10] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Sure, environment and education play large parts, but ultimately, it is your choice.
[21:10] Bxxxxxxx Txxxxxxxx caresses his mute button before smashing it .... then caresses it even more
[21:11] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): You're in a place where intelligence is respected, as well as wit and humor, with a healthy dose of sensuality.
[21:11] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): But you're showing up like this.
[21:11] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): By choice. Why?
[21:12] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: its a thing

It's a stupid thing.

[21:13] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: smart people do dumb [sh*t]

Apparently.

[21:13] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right, but...I mean, do you *have* to be hated? Does it help you psychologically?
[21:14] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: yeah i think I prefer to be hated
[21:14] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: somehow validates my existance

"Existence". I don't get people...

[21:14] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: i am just a man
[21:14] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: compilcated
[21:15] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: sorrys

"Complicated", and "sorry". And I suspect you're really not. Either complicated or sorry.

[21:15] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I like books
[21:15] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I like reading...
[21:22] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Complication is not the issue.
[21:29] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: well it kinda is

Save...no. You blundered in, irritated the bulk of the people in chat, tempted several of us to mute you from go, so...what was your point? "I'm complex"? Who isn't? And you're not coming off as too complicated for the room, you're coming off as...disturbingly, blandly, predictably simple.

And then...he IMed me.

[21:18] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: sometimes I think I might be Jeaus

"Jesus". And now you've moved from simple irration into mass delusion.

[21:18] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: sorry for trolling you

And then he sent me a friend request. WHY...

[21:19] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, a, you're not, unless you're actually a zombifed eternal Israelite, and b, thanks, but...why friend?
[21:19] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I like your name kinda like William

???

[21:19] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I see.
[21:19] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: trolling

Yes.

[21:20] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: star treck was cool.... until netflix [f*ck] it

"Trek", and once more, I'm not bothering to correct your tense on the second one.

[21:21] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: thats wat you mean hey?

"What". And no...?

[21:21] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): blinks.
[21:21] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Star Trek...has nothing to do with Netflix?
[21:21] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: kk

I mean, it really doesn't. What are you trying to say here?

[21:22] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [you can be my friend... I am pretty cool in rl]
[21:22] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: that is a joke
[21:22] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: im [sh*t]

I'm getting so tired of this.

[21:22] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): See, you keep saying that.
[21:22] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: self depercating humour

"Deprecating".

[21:22] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): You're only worthless if you decide you're worthless. And you seem to be really working hard to convince people you're worthless.
[21:24] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: sounds like you should be on twttier

"Twitter".

[21:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I am. And Tumblr. Minor YouTube account. I blog.
[21:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): What's your point?
[21:24] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: if you cant laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at

First, you're taking the wrong message from that phrase, and second, you have to be funny in the first place.

[21:25] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Laughing at yourself is not saying, continually, that you're [sh*t.]
[21:25] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: okay
[21:25] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: yeah I understand that

Do you? Do you really?

[21:25] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I will stop doing it
[21:26] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: its hard
[21:26] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: in real
[21:26] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I am old
[21:26] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: trying to stay relivent

"Relevant". And age has no meaning if the drive to continue to improve exists. It sounds like you've given up, by choice. I don't get that.

[21:26] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Emily... I swear I was cool
[21:27] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: did you check out my profile?

Yes. It's slightly mystifying. You sound like you have a working brain in it. And clearly, by this chat, if yours is still working, at least one of the hamsters has been on break for a while...

[21:28] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I wont check yours unless you friend me

This is the single weirdest threat I've ever heard.

[21:29] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I don't care if you do or not. It's there, people want to read, they can, they can avoid it.
[21:30] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: what?
[21:31] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I dont know what you mean...

Of course you don't.

[21:31] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And I did, and it's....dissonant. Doesn't match your eternal "but I'm a total waste of space who thinks 4chan is the height of comedy" persona in public.
[21:31] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: you lost me Em
[21:32] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: 4chan is dope
[21:32] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: idk

I rest my case.

[21:32] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): See? There you go.
[21:32] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: tell me
[21:32] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: trying to reach out
[21:32] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: seriously

No, I had no idea why I was bothering at this point, either.

[21:33] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, let's say we're all in an art gallery.
[21:33] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I dont understand
[21:33] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: okay
[21:33] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Some people are showing still lifes. Some are showing sculptures. Someone's pulling Jackson Pollack paint streaks. There's a few doing outsider art from found objects.
[21:33] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And you're in the corner smearing fecal matter on the walls.
[21:34] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Like...tons of different materials you could choose to create in, yeah?
[21:34] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I pooped my pant yeasterday

"Yesterday", and...you know what? Not fighting this battle anymore. You're not interested in listening.

[21:34] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: lets you know you are still human
[21:35] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: its only funny cause its true
[21:36] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: like' learn to code?
[21:36] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) sighs and gives up.
[21:36] axxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: what are you talking about Emily
[21:36] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Live your best life, dear, I can't help.

And that's when I muted him.

This was so tiring.

in the places never wandered, there are many secrets there to see (part III)

(Continued from part II.)

And the last bit:

[11:45] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: right.
[11:45] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: which..strengthens what I'm saying, that the brain is the driver, in concert with other brains, building what people are thinking as distinct, something distinct, from the brain.
[11:46] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right. Which is where we can flash back to reality being a shared illusion, because our brains are agreeing on what we're seeing most of the time.
[11:46] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): But alter that brain pathing, and that perception of shared reality goes off the rails.
[11:46] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: well..here's the thing
[11:46] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you wear glasses, right?
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: simple experiment to reinforce that point
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: look at a cat, say, up close.
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: With, then without your glasses
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's different.
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: even there, you're seeing something vastly different.
[11:47] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the fur, the textures
[11:48] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Sure.
[11:49] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the main point is.
[11:49] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's the brain
[11:54] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Trying to fill in the gaps if there need to be details filled in, because the brain also invents
[11:56] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes, but...again, too..this depends on what conversation one is having.
[11:56] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay
[11:58] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you disagree?
[11:59] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) grins
[11:59] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): No, brain full, considering. :D
[12:00] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Also remembering that bit after I just got glasses, after decades of apparently needing them and not having them, and coming home and yelling at the girls "EVERYTHING IS SHARP! HOW CAN YOU LIVE LIKE THIS?!"

To this day, I remember that utter shock going home with new glasses on. All the soft comforting blurs were missing. Everything was razor-edged. It was...terrifying, in a sense.

[12:04] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): The brain is capable of cold rationality, and flights of fancy, and in a weird sense, neither of those are strictly the brain's responsibility, as we've learned with research into anti-depressants and anti-psychotics: it's the chemicals the brain sits in.
[12:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes
[12:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: And that also indicates that one's "self" is malleable.
[12:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and it's a result of changes to the brain.
[12:06] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Yes.
[12:06] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): The self is very malleable.
[12:11] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: because the self is the brain
[12:11] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: feeds you popcorn
[12:11] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Are we sure of that, though? Or is the brain the machine that perceives, and the self is the stew of chemicals and electricity that feeds into the machine?
[12:11] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) noms
[12:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: there isn't a difference.
[12:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's like saying we are only hungry because of the food that goes into our mouths
[12:12] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Between the brain and, say, adrenaline? Why not?
[12:13] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Are you trying to imply that your self is contained in adrenaline? because I think you're really trying to have your cake and eat it.
[12:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: What you are saying here, as far as my interpretation goes..is that you feed something into the brain, and that is the self.
[12:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but that's another way of saying "the brain is interacting with the world"
[12:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's still the brain
[12:15] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: And we've already, I think, agreed, in principle, that what we would call self is only distinct in so much that the brain interacts with other brains..and without that interaction, the self vanishes.

So here's another stunner--does the self then exist at all? Or is it only another illusion that comforts us to hold?

[12:17] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that bag of popcorn warmed my hands up, nicely
[12:17] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) grins
[12:17] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And no, I'm not trying to have it both ways, I'm trying to figure it out.
[12:19] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: That I know too, but what you're saying, is in effect, attempting to have it both ways in practical terms, but that's just my opinion
[12:19] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So essentially, your position is, the self is only the self if it can perceive others. It dissolves otherwise.
[12:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Yes, though, perhaps it's contingent on there being a world to interact with, in simpler terms
[12:20] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay, fair.
[12:20] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And thus, in that sense, the self is essentially something that only exists in its own reflection.
[12:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Self would lose meaning without the backdrop, I suppose, is the essence.
[12:20] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right.
[12:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: sure
[12:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's best analogy might be..we only understand nothing in comparison to something.
[12:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Without something, nothing would be nonsensical
[12:21] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right.
[12:22] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So in that sense, it doesn't necessarily matter if there IS a distinction between the brain on its own, and the brain under influence of chemicals, because, those distinctions only come into play in terms of reaction to the world around it.
[12:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It would fair to say that, if by "mind is distinct" you meant that it's from the interplay between the physical, central processing center, and the world around it, playing out across life..then yes
[12:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: like a computer
[12:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you might leave a computer running
[12:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but without the interaction from outside
[12:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's processes in a closed system
[12:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: so..you revert back to complete determinism.

No input, only output, and the output restricted.

[12:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Within that framework, self is a meaningless concept.
[12:27] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So I think we're on the same page at this point?
[12:28] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: If that's how you mean it
[12:28] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But keep in mind, in my mind, that still just is.."it's the brain"
[12:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I don't see that, in this particular conversation..it as useful to say there's something beyond the brain...because that distinction is not productive to figuring the 'why' out.
[12:29] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Which I agree with now, I think
[12:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Jump up to a different level of conversation, and I'd grant the assumption as a matter of making conversation easier.
[12:29] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Just took me a bit to get there
[12:30] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: what was making it hard?
[12:39] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Preconceptions
[12:39] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Mainly
[12:40] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I am trying harder these days not to get in my own way, or if I do, to find a way to step out of my own way? But I still run into the occasional "nuh-UH" moments
[12:41] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Which preconceptions, in this case?
[12:42] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): The mind-brain preconception

And then we drifted into stimulus discussion. But still. Some fascinating things for the brain to chew over and process.

blood on my hands (part XVII)

(Roleplay entry. Continued from part XVI.)



The Duchess paced in the nursery. There were other ways, she knew Justine was working on other ways, but...something in her needed to do...something. They'd lost the Duke, they got the Duke back, and now...he was gone again. And she needed to do...something.

These days, it was always a little tricky to shift directly to a different time. She could--through the portals at Gearhaven, or on her own--shift through times for general appearances, but...specific moments. Specific hours, even. That was harder.

She decided it would be easier in a fae form--not quite her former phouka, embracing that again would require a great amount of personality alteration, not to mention height--but she made the shift. And appeared next to...Hiro.



Dead Hiro.

Not dead, she told herself. He's not dead, this was just a...stand-in. That's all. That's all it...was...



She drew closer, wings fluttering in distress. So similar. Exact, even. So much like the original...and she'd come here to...

...take a chip out of his brain.



She landed next to him, staring. "I'm not strong enough for this, Hiro," she whispered. "I can't. I can't just...I can't..." She bent forward, keening in mistery, then straightened her spine. It was needed. She could do this. It was just flesh. Flesh that no longer mattered.

She slipped the little leafcutter blade from her belt, reaching out with a finger to trace up to the top of his spine, feeling for the small indentation where spine linked to skull. She cut there, two inches, reaching in with two fingers, widening the cut slowly. She closed her eyes, pushing everything else away--the scent of cold fur, colder blood, the trace of ozone in the still air...and felt an edge of metal. She pulled. Ended up with a small sigiled chip inlaid with gold and ivory, nearly the size of one of her fingertips. Without thinking, she popped it in her mouth to clean it, shuddered at the taste, and flew down the hall to the command deck.

It took a bit to interface the chip's systems with the only thing she could find to bring with her, an empty USB drive, but she finally transferred the data to the drive, knowing their systems could read the drive's content, but might need Hiro's authorization to read thaumatechnical chips. She popped it out and walked to the central pillar.



She only realized then she was largely on autopilot. It might be shock. She'd had no idea she'd been standing in Hiro's...the clone's...Hiro's...blood, and the contrast against her teal skin was shocking.



She collapsed, one trembling hand reaching out to place the drive where Justine would see it, or not, and...fled. Back to Gearhaven Prime, back to her timestream, and away from thoughts of death and loss and...blood.

So much blood.

She needed a drink. She might need nine drinks. She might need to buy a bar.

(Continued in part XVIII.)

I have spent a lifetime hunting for the stories long untold (part XVI)

(Roleplay entry. Continued from part XV.)

Hiro has been listening for awhile. Still reeling from the discussion.

"Ok, take me through this, time travel and manipulation of the metaverse can get us here, but we can’t leave because..."

Hiram interrupted. "We have not found a way to make it work."

"So something is blocking the used of trans-dimensional and temporal shifting?"

"Exactly."

"But Nyarla--"

Hiram motions for him to stop talking.

Hiro nodded. "Sorry, will not say it. But HE has some way of time travel, because he edits scripture? On the fly?"

"We don't know how, but yes..."

Bilqis spoke up. She had been deep in thought.

"He changed the garden of Eden story to replace the serpent with a leopard."

"He is preemptively changing the religious practices, to literally demonize you..."

"Wait, isn't this a big leap? I just got here..."

Hiram spoke up. "The only way to know for sure is to ask a friend upstream in this timeline..."

"This is your code thing again...Respo--what did you call it?"

"Rhapsodomancy."

Hiro stared blankly. "You made that up."

"No. Rhapsodomancy is an ancient form of divination performed by choosing through some method a specific passage or poem from which to ascertain information."

"Okay. How does pulling random messages out of poems, send messages to the future?"

"We alter certain texts that will be reviewed later. We implant a message. We pass down in oral history the passages to study. Eventually, in the future, some allies read it. Match the message up to the coded instructions."

Hiro stared. Bilqis spoke up. "Hiro--we hide a message In text that will survive. In the future our allies, our 'order', will read it...actually, decode it...and reply."

"Years from now?"

"Yes, they know to time travel back before this time, before this probability well started, and bury a message here. For us to retrieve a few hundred years later."

"So that's how you communicate with people across time?"

"Exactly."

(Continued in part XVII.)

keep drifting, thieves drifting

I received a somewhat frantic IM from Justine. She said the house had shifted? Or something. So I went to check it out.

[16:50] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): ok, so these stairs....
[16:50] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): up here.
[16:50] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay.
[16:50] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): so this wall that i am slamming into.
[16:50] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): seems a lot closer to the up stairs and the door than it used to be.

(The wall in question.)

[16:51] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): i feel like it moved.
[16:51] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): It does, but....why?
[16:51] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): if you look at this corner....
[16:51] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): see?
[16:51] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): i don't know why.
[16:51] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): why do sink holes keep appearing?
[16:51] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): are the two things related?
[16:51] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): does the build move when we terraform?
[16:51] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): i don't know.
[16:51] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): It shouldn't
[16:51] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): But we shouldn't get random square land pits either
[16:52] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): right. it shouldn't
[16:52] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I have NO idea
[16:52] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): so, i didn't try to move this wall back because i don't know if that's what moved?
[16:52] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay, trying a thing
[16:52] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): and what i'll break if i push it back.

(The outside of the wall section that moved.)

[16:52] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Man, cannot tell if it's supposed to move with the metal facing, or the bricks
[16:53] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): alone
[16:54] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay, this is weird. I hit edit linked?
[16:54] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Tap this one wall
[16:54] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): It selects 150 objects
[16:54] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): right. ok.
[16:54] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): that's not unreasonable.
[16:54] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I tap the curved bit? 303.
[16:54] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): ahhh. that is weird.
[16:54] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So. I will try a thing, but yeep
[16:56] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I wish I could remember what it looked like before
[16:56] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): i know.
[16:56] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): You're right that it looks off, but--does that make it better?

(Another angle of the exterior wall.)

[16:56] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): oh!
[16:56] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): maybe we should go back to oceanpoint!
[16:56] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): and look to see what it looks like there!

Well, derp. Of course.

[16:56] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Good point.
[16:56] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): also ... my friend major has a steamopolis at his place! we could go look at that!
[16:57] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) laughs
[16:57] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Have I met Major yet?
[16:57] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): that is for sure not to have moved, because it's brand new and he doesn't do much.
[16:57] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): i think so. he used to be mojo nova?
[16:57] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): now he's major hijinx. :)

(A closer look at the wall section. It had moved, but...by a really, really small amount.)

[16:57] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): i don't see him often.
[16:57] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): i mean, like, once a month or something.
[16:58] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): The Portrait was taken in his studio.

Yes, the portrait that will haunt our dreams. Of course.

[16:58] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Mojo Nova strikes a faint bell.
[16:58] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, your opt, his version or Oceanpoint's.
[16:58] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): let's go see his.
[16:58] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): hold on....
[16:59] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): oh, it's gone. :) he must have changed his mind.
[16:59] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): oceanpoint it is!
[16:59] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay!

So off we went.

[17:00] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Oh, this is interesting
[17:00] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So yes, but
[17:00] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): it looks exactly the same!
[17:00] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Only part of the wall

(After I thought I'd fixed it.)

[17:00] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): No, part of it is is out of alignment, but forward, not back
[17:00] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): i just never noticed how tight the space was on this landing.
[17:00] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): how odd.
[17:01] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So we need to back the one wall section up at Gearhaven by....an inch or so
[17:01] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Yeah. I don't remember it being quite this compact either?
[17:04] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And now it matches? I think?
[17:06] Justine (justinejohndory.amethyst): thanks!

(I ported back to Oceanpoint to check, just to make sure, but yes, now the wall is where it's supposed to be.)

[17:07] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Nope, I did one thing wrong! But I feex!
[17:09] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And done!
[17:10] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So...for whatever reason...we had two prim sets move in two different directions. *Might* have been an initial rez error we never noticed. If so, relatively small one.

I mean, on the one hand, it's an old build. A great build, but an old build. On the other hand..."weird things happen on Gearhaven" we can now say whether we're talking about the roleplay storyline, or the actual lived SL experience, and that...is kind of unsettling.

my hands are tied, but not tied enough

What is wrong with people? Don't get me wrong, that's a pretty template. I own a version, and I have been thinking about picking up the full-perm version to play with textures. But. I own it precisely because it's a very adult set of harem pants that I can still technically wear on G sims.

I am an adult. I can do that. Put that on a child, though? We're back to pedophilia on parade, and can SL designers please STOP doing that?!

Today I learned that not only was there a satirical publication called Der Götz von Berlichingen, named after a historical badass, but a bit more about said historical badass.

And in other news:

[11:19] rxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx:



[11:20] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Wow.
[11:21] rxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Every day is Halloween in [Lxxx] world
[11:23] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): As it should be.
[11:23] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I, also, try to keep the spirit of the season year 'round.
[11:23] rxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx:



a friend said " You look like you're about to draw me into some really creepy circus tent"
[11:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Not inaccurate, as an impression.
[11:25] rxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: It does have that feel yes, a pure accident really but those are the best
[11:25] txxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Am I the only person thinking of this song...?
[11:26] mxxxxxx Lxxxxx: It is quite incredible look, I do love the colors
[11:26] rxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx laughs
[11:27] rxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8DO4EKAztM more like
[11:28] rxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: TY [Fxxxx] it's as usual a Frankenstein get up
[11:28] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): That works too.

in the places never wandered, there are many secrets there to see (part II)

(Continued from part I.)

Picking up where we left off:

[11:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you can call part of what the brain does "the mind" if that makes it more palatable.
[11:12] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Which is fine, but something--and again, not talking soul/God/whatever--had to integrate enough beyond pure reaction to actually evolve into a different form.
[11:12] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Which we did.
[11:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but..on scientific terms, there's no difference.
[11:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: why?
[11:12] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's like how one might say there is a measure of free will in how complex societies react.
[11:13] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's just the brain that you're talking about..and you're calling what the brain does "the mind" as if it's a separate thing
[11:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and..for all intents and purposes, that's generally fine..but if you want to get down to the very base level..it's a different conversation
[11:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's kind of like having a question of morality, and where it comes from.
[11:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: most of the time, it doesn't really matter, people get along fine
[11:14] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but if you peel back the layers to it's origins, it's a different conversation
[11:15] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Morality is socially guided behavior modification for the benefit of the group over the individual.

I still believe that, but as such, I also believe that morality is mutable, according to the needs of the society. Are there some things that are always wrong? Sure, and that's a slight dissonance to the first belief, but...not the first time I've believed contradictory things, either.

[11:16] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it evolves the same way we evolve..it doesn't even need to be modification, though i'd agree it does ...a social species is going to have certain morals, naturally
[11:16] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: just like a shark, or a cat, wouldn't
[11:17] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but most people aren't perceiving it that way.
[11:17] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the mind/brain is the same, as far as I can tell.
[11:17] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's not palatable for a person to think of just the brain.
[11:18] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I honestly don't know if it's not palatable. At least, for me personally. I know that that was largely how the psych books I've read presented it.
[11:18] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): But, thinking evolves, understanding evolves, and maybe it's no longer a good working theory.
[11:19] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: well..partly is...neuroscience has.
[11:19] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and partly...there are two separate conversations.
[11:19] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: If you want to have a conversation of the reality of the brain..then it's different..and I'm not sure it's meaningful to say mind/brain. It's the brain. you call what the brain does "the mind", but it's the brain.
[11:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: In the realm of psychiatry, that might not be a meaningful thing to say, I can't say.
[11:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But..CBT, for instance, is highly useful for training people into certain good habits that combat things like depression, etc..
[11:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It can't necessarly change the brain entirely, but that reinforcement I believe has been shown to be able to change the workings of the brain, to some level.
[11:21] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But..again, we're talking about the brain, and what it does.
[11:22] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I don't comprehend, on that level, what you mean by mind being distinct.
[11:23] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): CBT therapy, and mindfulness practice, actually has been proven to have some beneficial physical effects, beyond just the pyschological ones. Lowered cortisol levels, lowered heart beat in some, there have been a handful of people who turned high blood pressure into normal. Not saying this is what everyone will experience, but it has been observed.

There have been some pretty radical observed reactions using CBT to lower blood pressure, for example.

[11:23] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: well...keep in mind, the psychological is..brain stuff
[11:23] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: if we're going to really get down to it
[11:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, the view is, psychotherapy is all mental/emotional work
[11:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes
[11:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Medicine on the other hand is physical work
[11:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but..at the end of the day, if you understand the brain, and why it does what it does, and what it does..
[11:24] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: brain stuff
[11:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): What CBT and mindfulness training exercises are showing us is that there's more of a link there than we comprehend.
[11:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Is what I'm saying.
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: link to what?
[11:25] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Between physical healing, and mental/emotional healing.
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's the same
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: That's what I'm saying
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's the brain

Third time I sat back and thought, "Bwuh."

[11:25] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Okay
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that's all
[11:25] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So it's just our advancing understanding that's showing us things we couldn't perceive before
[11:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It might be more useful to separate things, here, for purposes of doing this or that.
[11:26] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But..the hard science says "it's the brain"
[11:26] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the mental and emotional is physical, is what I'm saying
[11:26] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it might seem distinct..but I'm not sure what basis I would say that it is, under
[11:28] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Whenever I've had this conversation..it basically ends up amounting to..."the distinction is there is a distinction.." ..just said in different ways
[11:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: which circles me back to...'it is more palatable for people to make that distinction."
[11:29] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, what I'm saying is, this is the theory I knew. Willing to consider other theories.
[11:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: nods
[11:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I'm not really disagreeing, or agreeing with the theory.
[11:30] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, no, your position is beyond it.
[11:30] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I'm just saying that..it makes no sense to me. It really amounts to someone positing that "the brain named itself"
[11:32] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and the author is saying, in effect "it's more productive to talk about them as distinct, so they are distinct"
[11:33] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): There's this bit from one of the Diane Duane Star Trek books. Alien is trying to explain the plot device for the book, and she's using the allusion of an entity that had no concept of self, no concept of separation from its surroundings, at all, partially oozing through a rift in space and suddenly being confronted with wildly different modes of perception. If this happened, she asked, what would this entity first need to do? And there were a lot of answers, most of them circulating around, trying to learn the language of those it saw, trying to perceive that the people it interacted with were separate, and she shook her head.
[11:33] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: And, I honestly don't disagree..it is more productive to use different language, and not just say "neurons did it"
[11:33] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): She said no. The first step is, realizing that there is consciousness. When one has no concept of consciousness as a separate factor, one has to come to *that* realization before any other.
[11:34] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: what do you mean by consciousness?

What do I...that's a stunner. I realized that was another of my 'everyone knows this' thoughts.

[11:35] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: so...the other thing is
[11:35] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, let's take you. Lots of labels we can hang around your neck. Some valid, some misidentifying, but there's a lot. You're a named entity. You have a named species. You, in point, have a YOU.
[11:35] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: she is actually demonstrating how people get around hard determinism
[11:35] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): What if something existed that had not reached that point yet?
[11:35] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: right
[11:35] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and..this is what I was speaking of before, on how you move beyond the absence of free will
[11:36] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and how you avoid being stuck in a completely deterministic universe
[11:36] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) nods.
[11:36] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the brain changes in response to outside influences, because we don't live in a void.
[11:36] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: there are, as best we can tell, other beings around us.
[11:36] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But..again..what is changing, what is doing the processing, is the brain.
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I don't know what you mean, beyond that, by saying "YOU"
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes, me.
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: brain
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that's me
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that's what is driving
[11:37] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Beyond that, I don't understand what you mean.

At this point, I wasn't sure we were on the same page, in the same book, or even in the same building, but I was fascinated.

[11:37] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Maybe this is a failure of having a language with defined sets
[11:38] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Yes, you. Brain. Driving around your meat suit. Yes.
[11:38] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes
[11:38] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): But YOU. YOUR brain. YOUR body.
[11:38] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: sure
[11:38] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but..that's the brain doing it
[11:38] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that concept of self is the brain, interacting with other distinct brains.
[11:39] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: You are defining yourself against the backdrop of other creatures being driven by brains.
[11:39] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: So, if that's how you mean consciousness..I wouldn't disagree.
[11:39] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: unless one is a hard solipsist.
[11:39] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Because the brain, on some level, at least in this current iteration of our consciousness, defines itself by separation from others.
[11:40] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: well..consider this.
[11:40] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: in the absence of others, would you be aware of yourself.
[11:40] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: "self " would have no meaning.
[11:40] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: so..what you're trying to make distinct isn't, not really. It's the brain acting against other brains
[11:41] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: so..we return...it's the brain. The mind is the brain.
[11:41] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Any distinctions are imposed by the interaction of multiple brains
[11:41] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: without those impositions, the distinction is meaningless.

So without brains implementing distinctions, all we are is reactions? I'm not sure that's what he's saying.

[11:42] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: If that's what you mean, I would agree
[11:42] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, see, that's an interesting dilemma.
[11:42] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Because we know that those who live alone, die alone, still have a perception of others.
[11:42] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: because there are others
[11:43] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So we'd have to look at recoveries from serious brain trauma, and what they said about their brains being that completely isolated from any other source of input, I guess.
[11:43] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And there's not a lot of examples.
[11:43] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the isolation is not possible, though, unless you were you going to say erase all awareness , and all memory of other people.
[11:43] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and not just that, erase that same thing from all other creatures.
[11:44] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right. It would be a savagely extreme experiment.
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: living, and dying alone, sure..but...they weren't always alone
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: And...consider the effect that even cursory isolation DOES have
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It erodes that sense of self.
[11:44] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Which is another factor. Someone who had a perception of self and other would still hold that perception.
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Or...in those suits they do, where you float in water
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: sensory deprivation
[11:44] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Oh, that we do know--solitary confinement in prison is considered a human rights violation by the UN
[11:44] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you lose that sense of self, because of that isolation.

Which also means "self" is not a defined, hard construct. It's flexible. It's redefinable.

(Continued in part II.)

in the places never wandered, there are many secrets there to see (part I)

Philosophy talks happen now and again. Though this one was partially biochemical, as well.

[09:49] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I wonder, did february happen
[09:49] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: or was it imagined
[09:49] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) grins
[09:54] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: February was likely fake news
[09:55] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Pish
[10:00] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I mean...how do we really know it happened?
[10:00] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Because...we lived through it?
[10:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but how can you prove it?!
[10:06] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, time is a shared illusion
[10:06] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: See. You admit it! An illusion!
[10:07] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Reality is a shared illusion too
[10:09] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: see!
[10:09] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: you admit it!
[10:10] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: we are not really here!
[10:10] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): We may not be!

Current prevailing theory is leading to that conclusion, anyway.

[10:11] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: See! Proof positive!
[10:11] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr) giggles
[10:18] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I win
[10:18] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: or...do I
[10:18] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: what is winning?
[10:19] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Winning might be an illusion too
[10:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But..what if the illusion is an illusion?
[10:20] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Illusions all the way down!
[10:24] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): And there's a working theory a group of quantum mathematicians are trying to prove that our reality is *actually* a simulation

Not to mention the ongoing research into how time may be a factor of gravity, and not an independent mechanism.

[10:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: scoffs
[10:25] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: There ARE no quantum mathematicians.
[10:28] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Of course there are!
[10:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Where?
[10:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I see no quantum mathematicians
[10:29] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: therefore, there are no quantum mathematicians
[10:33] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, not *here*...
[10:34] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but where?
[10:34] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: there?
[10:34] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I see none there, or here
[10:34] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Therefore, there are no quantum mathematicians here, nor there...and what is there? No where, until it's here!
[10:39] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): See, some quantum mathematicians would agree
[10:40] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Sure, if they existed
[10:42] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I am my brain
[10:43] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But, you too, are my brain
[10:43] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: But my brain is an illusion
[10:43] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: There is no brain

Which is also a theory, along with the crowd trying to prove we're actually living in a simulation.

[10:47] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Also remember the mind-brain split
[10:47] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): There is brain, and there is mind, and they are not the same thing
[10:50] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I'm not sure I'd see the difference.
[10:50] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: in honesty
[10:50] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that's like [axxx] and her "there is a mind"
[10:50] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: What mind? how do you mean?
[10:51] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I'm not saying I wouldn't want there to be something of us divorced from the processes of the brain, just that currently, the best neuroscience does not paint that picture.
[10:51] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: There's the brain..the brain is the mind

So we addressed it, with my current understanding...and I realized I may not have thought this through enough.

[10:53] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Here's how the theory goes.
[10:53] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): The brain's the meat. The mind's what named the brain.
[10:55] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: there's no difference, though
[10:55] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I'm not sure what you mean by "the mind"
[10:56] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Without meaning to offend..to say "the mind named the brain" is nonsensical, if that makes sense
[10:56] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's basically saying "the brain named itself"
[10:56] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: according to what current neuroscience tells us
[10:58] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, that's definitely another way to look at it.
[10:58] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I'm sorry, I don't have an frame of reference to look at it the way you probably are.
[10:58] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It has absolutely no meaning to say it the other way, for me
[10:59] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I don't get what you mean.
[10:59] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: how do you mean "mind"
[10:59] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: as apart from "brain"
[11:01] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: this encapsulates the problem

It does. We're deep into theoretical perceptions, now.

[11:01] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: That's the thing about magic; you've got to know it's still here, all around us, or it just stays invisible for you. ― Charles de Lint
[11:01] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: [Axxx] has that quote on her profile.
[11:02] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: And the question is the same..what do you mean by magic?
[11:02] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I have no frame of reference.
[11:02] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it is a statement that might be profound, but for me, it's nonsensical
[11:02] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's akin to saying "if I believe it's magic, it is magic"
[11:03] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Well, this is a both-sides sort of article
[11:03] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Though they come down largely on the side of 'only brain'
[11:04] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I don't think it's that nonsensical. Meat can't think. In that sense, the brain is nothing more than meat bathed in chemicals and saline, occasionally electrically charged.
[11:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I think that modern science currently disagrees with you.
[11:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Meat, as in the brain, does think.
[11:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the processes are the brain
[11:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the collection of processes in the brain drive what you are calling the mind.
[11:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: which, is fine
[11:05] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but the distinction is one of "meat can't think, therefore it has to be something more"
[11:06] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the problem is...there doesn't seem to be any merit to that, as of now.
[11:06] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the author is flat out saying as much, here.

And there are a lot of studies on all sides.

[11:06] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Right, but I'm not saying the something more is magic, or soul, or whatever
[11:06] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: She just doesn't want to admit it.
[11:06] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): I'm saying, the concept of language, and identification, and labeling, had to come from somewhere
[11:06] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: the brain
[11:07] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Our bodies, our brains, work in much the same way--stimulus, reaction.
[11:07] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and the way our brains are interacting with other brains
[11:07] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: yes
[11:07] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): There's no higher thought involved.
[11:07] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I don't know what you mean by higher thought.

And this was the second time I sat back and said, "Huh."

[11:07] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: it's just thought
[11:07] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: what makes it higher or lower?
[11:08] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): You don't perceive a difference between *hunger* *need* levels of reaction, and, say, one of Shakespeare's plays?
[11:08] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: my perception is irrelevant
[11:08] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I'm saying..here's a good point
[11:09] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: "made them do it than if their brain (aberrant activity patterns, pathological circuitry...) did shows just how deeply average folks believe that mind and brain are distinct."
[11:09] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I might perceive, believe x
[11:09] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: and that's fine
[11:09] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: but it does not change the base fact, as best we can tell, that there is no difference.
[11:09] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: It's an arbitrary thing.
[11:10] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Like me saying that human progress is inherently better than what another animal might do
[11:10] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Oh, no, I fully get we're just animals
[11:10] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: Yes, from my perspective, my creative activity has more meaning, but objectively no, it doesn;t
[11:10] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: so, I might perceive shakespeare as having more merit..but it doesn't.
[11:10] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): So, maybe this is my confusion.
[11:11] Emilly Shatner-Orr (emilly.orr): Brain reacts. Mind thinks. But for how you're putting it, brain reacts, brain also perceives, and we translate those perceptions into language, but they're still all chemicals and jolts across the neurons?
[11:11] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: right, but...it's just the brain
[11:11] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: I don't know where you're coming up with mind.
[11:11] Mxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxxx: that's all I am saying :)

This was me sitting back and facing one of my 'But of course it's this way' beliefs, and then spinning around and looking at it again. Why is that an 'of course' belief? What makes it an 'of course' belief? Is it a true belief? Maybe it's time to work that out.

(This endeth part one. This is a long one, it will be three parts. Part II will be posted later today.)

in the silence of the desert, in the bellows of the sea (part XV)

(Roleplay entry. Continued from part XIV.)

Hiram Abriff sat in the temple. He didn't look as imposing as Hiro expected he intended. The stonemason was a small framed man, not at all imposing, seated between the two pillars, like the Tarot card of the high priestess--the traditional placing framed by Boaz and Jocham.

"Were you summoned and sent?"

"Neither."

"No one 'chooses' to come here. I did not, she did not. I would wager the Crawling Darkness himself was sent by someone else."

The torches lit the half built chamber. Two workers high up on a parapet seemed to be stacking bricks that appeared from nowhere on a floating wooden platform. The workers from a distance looked like they were wearing olive-colored reptile skins.

Hiro shifted uncomfortably in the wooden cage. "I need to stand up. Stretch a bit--"

Hiram laughed. "No, Cat Man. Not happening. I want to be back in Brooklyn. Ya know? Cool Brooklyn, post vaccine in a 21st Century civil war timeline, or maybe in one of the Masonic Imperial time lines..."

Hiro listened. Involuntarily flexing his claws. Staring at the throat of who he thought would soon be a victim.

Hiram was wearing a silk tunic. On his hands, several large rings with arcane symbols.

Hiro heard foot steps on the stone floor, he looked to see Bilqis. Alone. Approaching.

"Ah, hello, love," Hiram called out. "He finally gave you a pass? Or with one of his other toys?"

“Ambien in the wine. Worked. I don’t know what we will do when we run out." Bilqis sat on a cushion facing Hiro's cage. She looked over her shoulder at Hiram. "Why is he still in the cage? Is this your idea of befriending him?"

"Uh...well, we were..."

She turned to look at Hiro. She smiled. She looked ethnically Latina or maybe mixed race. In the throne room she had a distinctly more exotic and at the same time regal look. Now her demeanor was less constrained.

"Kitty, what has my boyfriend told you about this mess we are in?"

"Not much, he..."

Hiram interrupted "Ha, the Queen is renowned for her humor, the only mess is what to do with this vile..."

Bilqis rolled her eyes so that only Hiro could see.

"So, not much."

He shook his head.

"Well, I'll do it. After you understand the facts, I will unlock you. Like you, we came from somewhere and when. Also, like you, something pulled you to this place and you can't get out of the 'well'."

Hiro nodded. "A gravity well?"

Hiram spoke up. "More like a probability well."

"Events, timelines, magic, accidents, etc., all pull back to this general point. Actually, goes a few hundred years back."

"We are hoping your Tardis would be functional..."

Hiro shakes his head. "I am not Gallifreyan. Nor would I have access to that technology."

"Nevertheless, you had access to something, but maybe you didn’t understand it? The signs and sigils were right in front of you all the time?"

Hiro tried to hide his confusion. "I...don't..."

The woman leaned in. "Kitty...we need to run some tests. You shouldn't have been able to come here with the counter measures. We don't know how it happened. But if you can do it, maybe others can. We need to know before HE blocks your magic, or tech--or both."

Hiro bumped his head on the top of the cage.

"Ouch. Get me out of this. Give me my clothes back and can we talk like civilized beings?"

Bilqis glanced at Hiram. "Banish the workers. I think it will be okay."

"But if it isn't? You cannot trust them, I have told you."

Hiram stood up and walked out of Hiro's line of sight. Hiro could smell a burning of some incense.

Bilqis unlocked the cage. The leopard man crawled out. He looked around the large room. Behind the pillars was a smaller room, it would have been the Holy of Holies--the inner sanctum. Hiram emerged from within it holding a scroll.

"Bil--we have a shift."

"Oh?"

"Yes, an obvious one. A big change. Here, look--"

He opened the scroll for Bilqis to read. "We have never seen this blatant of a shift."

"Okay, let’s send word--"

"What is the planned medium?" Hiram asked.

"Wait--what are you talking about?" Hiro looked from the queen to the stonemason.

"Here, she'll read it, and we will explain. But get dressed first." Hiram tossed Hiro his uniform. "Put this on, mate."

Bilqis read:

This is from Genesis, what you
you may have called the Bible or Torah:

Now the leopard was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the man, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The man said to the leopard, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,
but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.'"
"You will not certainly die," the leopard said to the man. "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
When the man saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, he took some and ate it. He also gave some to his wife, who was with him, and she ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked, so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

Bilqis looked up at Hiro.

"This is different than I learned it."

Bilqis nodded. "Yes, it means HE is worried about you. Enough to alter scripture."

"Who are you talking about, and how..."

"There isn't time, we need to get word out and ask some questions of our teammates in the future."

"You can talk to the future? Sign me up, I need to get word out."

"Hiro, it isn’t that easy. Let us explain..."

(Continued in part XVI.)