And continued from the last two days of chats. This was an IM thread sent to me from someone else, that sparked the investigation into the first two entries..
[11:44] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Hello Emily... Are you free for a couple of questions about [the group in question] ?
[11:44] Emilly Orr: Sure, what's up?
[11:44] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx is really annoyed at the trend things are following in [the group in question]
[11:44] Emilly Orr: They have grown much more restrictive over the past few months.
[11:45] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Would like to know how an "old hand" like you feels about it
[11:45] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Right, agree
[11:46] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Just restrictive... about the places that can be posted and such ?
[11:46] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: or would you say their attitude also hardened to the point of rudeness ?
[11:46] Emilly Orr: I still find the group worthwhile to belong to, but I will admit, the mounting pressure of more and more rules is making me unwilling to chat in the group.
[11:47] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Feel free to "No comment", no problem
[11:47] Emilly Orr: I honestly think it's a backlash reaction to the rival group.
[11:47] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: OK, same here... I don't feel like posting and be rejected nastily
[11:47] Emilly Orr nods
[11:47] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: rival Group ?
[11:48] Emilly Orr: What I seem to be running into most often are things that were okay two months ago, but that aren't now, and the group description hasn't been updated with the change. Like being unable to mention any stores that are not direct affiliates of [the group in question].
[11:48] Emilly Orr: Okay, so this would be maybe...four months back? There was a huge drama bomb, a lot of group members got angry, lots of arguing.
[11:49] Emilly Orr: Basically boiled down to "You're not the boss of me!" "Oh yes we are!"
[11:49] Emilly Orr: So, they left the group in a huff and formed their own.
[11:49] Emilly Orr: It has the [group name] in their group title, and the F word. They're searchable. But they also seem bitter beyond all reason, so I have no interest in joining them.
[11:49] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Ah... Not the first time a breakaway Group erupts from a confrontation though ?
[11:50] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx wants the name of that Group 
[11:50] Emilly Orr: No, but this is the one they're actively watching. They have stealth mods who've joined that group who watch who joins, and if they're also in [the group in question], they get booted from [the group in question].
[11:50] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: There was a rather big drama bomb a few hours ago, [Cxxxxxxx] exploded, lol
[11:51] Emilly Orr: I missed it!
[11:51] Emilly Orr: Do you know why?
[11:51] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I am in a couple of splinters, no direct action so far (not doubting what you say, just saying)
[11:51] Emilly Orr nods
[11:52] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Rudeness of a certain [group mod that starts with a D], and a Notecard to [Exxxx] about it not being answered is what I got
[11:52] Emilly Orr: Yeah, [Dxxxxx]'s got her feathers ruffled a lot.
[11:52] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: May I suggest... Notecard [Cxxxxxxx], he will be happy to send you the log 
[11:52] Emilly Orr: Okay.
And that was the first two entries I did on this topic.
[11:53] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I recognised your name from somewhere, Group or from someone who mentioned you... There is respect attached to it in my mind, so that is why I asked you
[11:53] Emilly Orr: Thanks.
[11:54] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Telling it like it is
I've been in SL a long time. I guess being heard of is a good thing?
[11:54] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [another shopping and freebies group] is one of the latest splinter, and 2 of their Mods are also [group name] members... so far
[11:55] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: so maybe you were thinking about an other Group ?
[11:56] Emilly Orr: No, I know I'm thinking of another group, because I remember seeing it. But "f*ck", or any variations of, aren't showing anything in search. So either they changed their name, or SL's blocking them because of the profanity.
[12:01] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I remember seeing that name, yes... started 2 years ago ?
[12:02] Emilly Orr: Maybe? I remember it as being four months back, but it could have existed before. I just know there was a huge overreaction over it three or four months ago
[12:04] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: or could be yet an other Group with a similar name
[12:06] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: ""f*ck", or any variations of, aren't showing anything in search" not for me either, but I saw something like that there not so long ago (6 weeks maybe
[12:06] Emilly Orr nods
[12:07] Emilly Orr: I don't know more beyond that, because like I said, they seemed a bit too bitter to join just to get access to adult/BDSM MM boards and gifts.
[12:11] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Mmmm... That was the bone of contention, Adult stuff
[12:11] Emilly Orr: Yeah. It's been a recurring topic.
And look. I'm not even going to get into that one. Groups have the absolute right to set rules for their groups. I think our main communal complaint is they need to
STATE THOSE RULES CLEARLY, and in fact,
BE OPEN ABOUT WHAT THOSE RULES ARE. And a list of banned stores would be nice, because otherwise, new members never know when they're at a place that isn't allowed to be posted, and right now, they're getting yelled at
FOR posting, and a lot of them end up leaving. This does not foster community in any way.
12:12] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Haute Goth Shoppers is not into that as a main topic, although there is no rule against those places... I guess common sense would direct members. It is not all Goth either... just general (no, not advertising, lol, just giving some info :P )
[12:13] Emilly Orr: The unable to mention store names, though, that's new. And a couple days ago I learned that if someone posts X store, and there is discussion of X store, that is "spamming" the group--even if there's only one post that features the MM or group gift or whatever.
[12:14] Emilly Orr: I have nothing against goth, I'm in Sinister. :D
[12:15] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Yes, tightening of the rules that are not even rules. If you say anything about a banned place, they consider you are posting it :(
[12:15] Emilly Orr: Yep
[12:15] Emilly Orr: Which is...very odd
[12:17] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: but it is part of a worrying tightening of (non written) rules
[12:18] Emilly Orr: And I'd have--well, I'd have a few problems, but--fewer problems if they actually DID write them down.
[12:19] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: To [[Rxxx] : [Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx]: And I'd have--well, I'd have a few problems, but--fewer problems if they actually DID write them down.
[12:19] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Someone mentioned the idea of expanding the Profile text space to a web page / blog post or link to get a Notecard which could hold much more information, and solve the problem of laconic rules (as in shortened due to space)
[12:19] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Answer : the rules are in short in the profile of the group, Most group members don't even bother to read them.
Not surprising in the least.
[12:20] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: ... If you are not sure just ask in chat for a mod and they can always help you out
[12:20] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Right. That means ask every time, given the speed of change, and wait up to 10 minutes (official wait time given by Rood to a friend for such cases) before you IM an other Mod
[12:20] Emilly Orr: Right. Which works if a) people ask and b) people read. Plus, it doesn't count the new members who don't know anything, thus won't know anything that isn't in the rules.
[12:21] Emilly Orr: Or just hassle Dragon in IM and get bounced. That's happened now and again.
[12:21] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: And try and fly throug with the rules in Profile... not possible
[12:22] Emilly Orr: And apologize a lot.
[12:22] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Mmmm... A mass movement to flood Mod's IMs with innocent query after innocent query until someone notices the peasants are getting restless
[12:22] Emilly Orr: Well, that would work if they cared to work with their members...and they don't.
[12:22] Emilly Orr: Which is not purely cynical, it's just observation. They think they're in the right, so why should they change?
[12:23] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: True. Any idea for improvement, suggestions, gets booted by Not Possible, Don't need that, Just ask 
[12:23] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: They are in denial, and on a power trip... opinion from "[Mxxxxx] surveyed members"
[12:24] Emilly Orr nods
[12:24] Emilly Orr: Pretty much
[12:25] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and mentionong in Group that members feel bad when a mod tells them of is... Attacking the Owner
[12:25] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: So yes, you are getting added to dem [Mxxxxx] statistics (anonymously, lol) as a WTF is going on, me not happy bunny
[12:26] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [rival group name with 'sucks' in the name]!
[12:26] Emilly Orr: Power trip, I'd agree with.
[12:26] Emilly Orr: They did change their name!
[12:26] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Sl Sucks MoNkEy Balls
[12:26] Emilly Orr: ....or not
[12:26] Emilly Orr: Whoa
[12:27] Emilly Orr: More than one group?
[12:27] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I tried sucks instead of f*cks
[12:27] Emilly Orr: Though SL sucks, that could be just SL in general :D
[12:28] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: First one may have been 2 years ago
[12:28] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Second one seems sl only, not [group name in question], sorry
[12:29] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: There are other splinters, but not using [group name in question] in mame
[12:29] Emilly Orr: The first one does seem to have the same founder as the profane group I remember
[12:31] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: My memory is not fantastic... but I have seen it before as Group owner, I think, not recently [Bxxxxxx Cxxxxx]
[12:31] Emilly Orr nods
[12:32] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: So maybe some Group disappeared or was banned
[12:33] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: FO! SL frees & offers!
[12:34] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: An other Group by [Bxxxxxx Cxxxxx], that one sounds like the one I remembered
[12:34] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: So you were right about the F
[12:35] Emilly Orr nods.
[12:35] Emilly Orr: And that's the one I think they're watching. That's the one they personally have a vendetta against.
[12:37] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: 765 members... They did grow quite nicely, lol, but for [group name in question] to be scared of them ?
[12:38] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: There is an other one
[12:38] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Oh no... not again !
[12:38] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: G.I.F.T. - Get It Free Today
[12:39] Emilly Orr: I think it's less they're scared of them, and more...it's a "How dare" situation. It's like, they don't specifically mind other freebs and offers groups, but if they're established because they think [group name in question] sucks, they get personally affronted by that.
[12:39] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: A good point there is quality : Please keep posts for quality items only
[12:40] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: OK, I understand, and Thou Shall Not Mock Das Fuhrer sounds about right for a red clog wearer
[12:40] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [Rxxx] = Red in Dutch. She is Dutch, so clog wearer
[12:40] Emilly Orr: Oh, [Rxxx] and repression go waaaaay back.
[12:41] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Standing joke : To post safely in [group name in question], wear fireproof clothing and a hard hat against flying glogs
[12:41] Emilly Orr: Part of the reason she set up the group is because she hated websites giving away pictures of hunt items, including hunts she ran, so people could pick and choose what items they wanted from a given hunt.
[12:41] Emilly Orr: She also hates people offering hints with a passion. Apparently, you should do the hunt start to finish, find everything with zero assistance, and get every hunt gift. Because "it's a process".
[12:42] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I have seen people mentioning "no hunt hints or else", but not sure it waas [group name in question]... Thank you for the info
[12:43] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: "Part of the reason she set up the group"... she tightened the Group ?
[12:43] Emilly Orr: No, she created the group.
[12:44] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [group name in question] ?
[12:44] Emilly Orr: I thought so
[12:44] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: you kinda confused me
[12:44] Emilly Orr: Maybe she just runs the mods
[12:44] Emilly Orr: She used to list her hunts with the FabFree blog, and she stalked away in a huff when they started posting hunt pictures and hints from her hunts.
[12:44] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Nooo... Group Creators were [Exxxx Gxxxxxxx] and a few others, amongst which [Hxxxx] (still there) and [Axxxxx Vxxxxxxxx].
[12:44] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Right
[12:45] Emilly Orr: She even yelled at me once when I wrote a blog entry on one of her hunts, because I'd "encouraged" people to "do the hunt wrong".
[12:45] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [Axxxxx] used to run the Group and oversee the Mods. [Rxxx] was a Mod ... started maybe 3-4 years ago
[12:45] Emilly Orr: Okay, then the group existed, she became a mod.
[12:45] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Now [Rxxx] has been made an Owner, and oversees the Group business / complaints and Mods
I think that's where the confusion came in, by the time I joined the group, Ms. R was already listed as a group owner.
[12:47] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Creators / founders... and [Rxxx] knows that, she said so in IM
[12:47] Emilly Orr nods
[12:48] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: There is a whole series of books to be written about [group name in question] history, lol, and those who know a lot about it still do not have the whole picture
[12:49] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I sure have huuuge gaps myself
[12:50] Emilly Orr would agree
[12:50] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Who is she ???
[12:50] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx:
[12:50] Emilly Orr grins
[12:51] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Did you know the Group's main language was not English when it was founded ?
[12:52] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: There is a doubt about whether it was Portuguese or Spanish
[12:52] Emilly Orr: Interesting. I'd be willing to bet Portuguese, though.
[12:52] Emilly Orr: Just because there are more Brazilians in SL.
[12:53] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: True
[12:53] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Although [Exxxx] does not say she speaks Portuguese, but Spanish, but Portuguese sounds right
[12:53] Emilly Orr nods
[13:00] Mxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Anyway, I better go, after thanking you for you answers, and for a fun and informative chat
[13:01] Emilly Orr: You're welcome!
And that is that...for now. But I'm fairly sure drama will explode again. This particular group attracts it, and largely through their own actions.
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