it’s all you all the time, you’re selfish

This was so far beyond my usual oddity, I have to post about it.

So, just as a brief explanation: I watch a lot of skeptic channels on YouTube. This is not news. Rachel Oates runs one of those channels. This is probably not news either, as she's smart, articulate, funny, and while I don't always agree with her, either way she's engaging and makes me think.

She put out "Sorry I screwed up", which was her reacting to comments she'd received on her last MGTOW video. (For anyone who doesn't know, "MGTOW" stands for "Men Going Their Own Way", and my opinion on the movement will become clear fairly soon, so I'm not going to go into it further than that.)

Her description below the video says:

The video's definitely more serious than the thumbnail makes out... but you know me! I just thought some of this stuff was worth saying. I know all the MGTOW guys who just want to be angry probably aren't going to care, they'll just call me a slut and insult my face / voice / life some more, but hopefully my actual subscribers will actually get something out of this and it'll explain a few things and we can all move on and keep being happy :)

And, I admit, as I was in something of a ranting mood, I responded:

Emilly Orr
1 week ago

I realize you want to keep it purely about the wording of the posts, not directly attack individual people, but I will gladly state that personally: the MGTOW community is full of toxic hatred and knee-jerk loathing for anyone who's not their own gender. There is no value, for them, in being anything but male, so how dare you be articulate, educated, funny, focused AND be female? The audacity. Keep your chin up and realize it's their own deep-seated insecurity in their own world view, and nothing at all you've done, that garners their hate and their lashing out.

No, this was in no way polite. I admit that. It was inflammatory, and intended to be so, I also acknowledge that. And...are we surprised? Someone answered:

Ruach Hako'desh
1 week ago

Do we need to arrest you women and put you to death for war crimes, before you get it? WE ARE TIRED OF LIVING UNDER YOUR GENOCIDE. Genocide shares characteristics with both war crimes and crimes against humanity, but is considered the most egregious crime of all. The legal definition of Genocide; Killing members of the group;causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Uses law, customs, and political power to deny the rights of male group, legitimizes there victimization, denies there humanity. Males of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. The Female group is taught to regard the other group as less than human, and even alien to their society. Have categories to distinguish people into “us and them”. Indoctrinated to believe that “We are better off without them.” Inflammatory rhetoric and hate propaganda with the objective of creating fear of the other group. Normaizing such genocide and the Normalization of Terror. The male group there property is often expropriated, they are even segregated. They are deliberately deprived of resources in order to slowly destroy them. Programs are implemented to prevent procreation, Children are forcibly taken. Psychological Torture, infliction of mental suffering, Debilitation, Isolation, solitary or quasi-solitary confinement, Degradation, deprivations, threats of death or violence, to self or others.

Crime of creating hostile environment, creating the threat of harm against the peace of this community, intentional tort. In terrorem, In order to frighten, contra legem, Against the law. The conduct “political warfare,” including what is termed the “three warfares”: public opinion warfare, legal warfare, and psychological warfare, involve operational missions against psychology and cognitive capacities. Taking of hostages, torture, crime of Apartheid as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity. The use of collective punishments, alongside hostage-taking and belligerent reprisals, has for many years been resorted to as a means of repression or intimidation. Torture per se and, in particular, psychological methods with imposing, deprivations of liberty, including attempted starvation, attempted forced homelessness, and economical deprivations as a method of warfare.

Placing superiority with oppression and unjustly punishing or degrading and humiliating. Confinement and prolonged deprivations amount to inhuman or degrading treatment or torture, when applied in conjunction with other techniques, cumulatively and/or over a long time. Systematic Terror; Social Dominance, violence and threat of violence or intimidation. Maintaining Oppression; The Superior Power of the Oppressors, the power to control, dominate, or exploit the persons. With the self-fulfilling prophecies in which the behavior of the oppressed, resulting from their oppression are used by the oppressors to justify the oppression; and the distorted relation between the oppressors and the oppressed. Substantial, severe, intense, extreme, unbearable, intolerable, excruciating, agonizing. Psychological Torture, infliction of mental suffering, Prolonged mental harm’ and abuse, of substantial duration. Debilitation, Isolation, solitary or quasi-solitary confinement, Degradation, deprivations, threats of death or violence, to self or others. Severely abused, egregious torment, emasculated, tamped down, basic human rights systematically abused through extrajudicial killings, torture and forced displacement or homelessness.

Do note: beyond bolding things that are all caps, I have done zero editing of his tirade. And while I expected an answer of some kind, I did not in any wise expect paragraphs of screaming insanity.

He wasn't done, though:

Ruach Hako'desh
1 week ago

Torture is a catastrophic existential event, facing the double dilemma both of coming to terms with the full reality of torture also of surviving unchanged the insidious pressure of YOU THE TORTURER to change, to act or react in relation to YOUR wishes. Coercive control designed to subjugate through, humiliation, guilt, coercion, or manipulation, and so forth.Thus qualify as torture, YOUR use of various forms of humiliation, degrading treatment, threats, isolation, or with the aim of punishing, degrading and humiliating. YOUR deliberate application which suits you the torturers and which is intended to have the maximum impact on the victims makes it much more difficult for the victims to mount any satisfactory defense, this is certain to be one of the primary aims of Your regime. It seems that torture is used for a combination of reasons, but chief among these are punishment and systematic repression. Torture and inhuman and degrading treatment do not involve merely one horrific act, but rather a regime that is unconscionably cruel in its totality. Attaching a ‘‘special stigma’’ and ‘‘particular intensity and cruelty’’, oppression: prolonged cruel and unjust treatment, persecution, abuse, maltreatment, ill-treatment, tyranny, despotism, and repression.

Makes declaratory judgment citing such respondents as "war criminals," particular belligerents to a conflict, hostile and aggressive, hostis humani generis. Engaged in abuse, torture, starvation, imprisonment, threats, psychological abuse, and coercion. Unethical repression, prolonged, cruel and unjust maltreatment. Actions define criminal intent the mental element, or mens rea of mass murder, as malice aforethought, and the interpretations of malice, maliciously, willfully. Atrocities, inhumane acts constitute grave infringements on the circumstances. Suffering appalling abuse as part of collective punishments. Not merely been the victim of injury and threat of death, but has also received the focused attention of adversaries determined to cause the maximal psychological harm. Attempts to reach resolution has been received with retaliation and intimidation acts, due to sloth, inattention or desire to seize tactical advantage, dilatory practices, ultimately disrespect for the law. The ongoing set of schemes to punish, coerce, and intimidate to suppress any dissent or objection to the "frightening" experience, an invasion of considerable proportion disruption and threat of life. Oppression, has been Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury.

Dominance, systematic terror can be official, semi-official, violence or intimidation carried out by officials of the state but not legally sanctioned by the state while terror is perpetrated by private individuals from dominant group, often illegally upon the subordinate. Stereotypes are attitudes, beliefs, feeling s and assumptions about a target group that are widespread and socially sanctioned. Stereotypes support the maintenance of institutionalized oppression by seemingly validating misinformation or beliefs. The repeated, everyday experience of being treated as an inferior produces a public image of being an inferior, the socially dominant oppression they produce and perpetuate. If oppressive consequences accrue to institutional laws, customs, or practices, the institution is oppressive whether or not the individuals maintaining those practices have oppressive intentions. 'Oppression is a matter of result regardless of intent.

Ongoing cycles of abuse and a climate of fear to normalize, legitimize, rationalize, deny, or minimize the abusive behaviour, and blame the victim for it. Do not question, do not have a differing opinion, do not have an individual thought or desire. The purpose of gas-lighting is to destroy or to deprive sanity. Insult the victim’s sense of security, uncanny how many gas-lighters have psychic abilities–they profess to be able to read minds through their assertions. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize the target and delegitimize the target's belief with the intention of disorienting the victim, or techniques of character assassination to maintain an agenda, which prevents both trying to escape, and moving forward in psychological recovery. Emotional abuse include name-calling, playing mind games, putting the victim down, or humiliating the individual. The goals are to make the person feel bad about themselves, feel guilty or think that they are crazy. Subjugation of the will of the victims to that of the torturers be it an aspect of interrogation, an aspect of punishment, retaliation, coercion and of political or religious repression. Torture per se and, in particular, psychological methods used during detention, with the aim of punishing or degrading and humiliating the victim. Suffering persistent abuse, resulting in psychological trauma, including anxiety, chronic depression, post-traumatic stress disorder. Including disrupting the normal healing process and leave the survivor condemned to a life of misery. A form of "bondage" through which the torturers ensure there torture will persist. Psychological trauma include harassment, embarrassment, abuse, discrimination, police brutality, bullying, domestic violence, and so on.

Again, outside of bolding all caps bits, I have changed nothing.

And he still wasn't done:

Ruach Hako'desh
1 week ago

Crime against humanity of apartheid. Committing an inhumane act against one or more persons in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one group over any other group or groups. Crime against humanity of other inhumane acts. Inflicting great suffering or serious injury to the mental health by means of an inhumane acts. Crime against humanity of enslavement. Exercising the power attaching to the right of ownership over one or more persons or imposing similar deprivations of liberty. Crime against humanity of imprisonment or other severe deprivation of liberty. War crime of starvation as a method of warfare. Depriving civilian of objects indispensable to their survival intending to starve them as a method of warfare. War crime of cruel treatment. War crime of inhuman treatment. War crime of torture. War crime of outrages upon personal dignity. Humiliating, degrading, or otherwise violating the dignity to a degree generally recognized as an outrage. War crime of willfully causing great suffering. War crime of destruction and appropriation of property. War crime of unlawful confinement. War crime of improper use of a flag of truce. War crime of using, conscripting or enlisting children. War crime of cruel treatment. War crime of attacking protected objects. War crime of treacherously killing or wounding. War crime of denying quarter. Genocide by causing serious bodily or mental harm, inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about physical destruction. Genocide by imposing measures intended to prevent births. Genocide by forcibly transferring children. IT GOES ON AND ON AND ON....

I answered back, of course:

Emilly Orr
4 days ago

@Ruach Hako'desh Not dating you is not genocide. Full stop.

Of course, he had to rant back:

Ruach Hako'desh
4 days ago

@Emilly Orr Considering during 2010–2014, an estimated 56 million + induced abortions each year worldwide. How many people died in ww2, 60 million people. It is like a holocaust every year. This is what you are saying. "We are to irresponsible and/or mentally incompetent to have children therefore we need to abort them." That Children should be raised by the state, conceived, developed, and engineered in state-owned breeding centers. So no more rights, just slaves owned and produced by and for the state, all because of your Genocidal child murder, continued to be practiced and continue to be embraced today. If they have a right to choose so should the men! The laws of equity demand that women stop having abortions or they release men from the enslavement of forced child care. Yet, you murder men refusing to allow them control over there own body being forced to care for a child for 18+ years. At gunpoint your father's are severely abused, egregious torment, emasculated, tamped down,basic human rights systematically abused through extrajudicial killings, torture and forced displacement or homelessness. That results in a 'deliberate deaths' and serves as 'a form of Murder' or 'manslaughter' as 'executions' the 'unlawful killing of another human without justification'. Despising the work of your hands and favor the designs of the wicked, to trust in oppression, in extortion, and put vain hopes in stolen goods. Eating the fruit of iniquity while devouring the earth; favoring the designs of the wicked, trusting in oppression, in extortion, and putting vain hopes in stolen goods. Because of the uncleanness that brings on destruction. By lying, stealing, and committing adultery. Demonizing men, destroying and then ridiculing them. Your honorable men are famished.

If he's talking "honorable men" in MGTOW, I have yet to see them, but okay, sure. For the rest of it...I'm just baffled. But he wasn't done, again, and went on:

Ruach Hako'desh
4 days ago

@Emilly Orr Denying emotional responsiveness" as characteristic of emotional abuse, treated has "stupid and ignorant" subhuman, ranging from disinterest, criticism, prejudice, avoidance, rejection, betrayal, stigmatization, ostracism, abandonment. It is repugnant, egregious, atrocious, heinous, and "subtle and insidious" form of abuse and emotional torture, "frequent and regular" damage to the emotional psyche. Routinely is subjected patterns of abuse is who's emotional suffering and psychological condition is best described has “Battered.” is a form of manipulation that seeks to sow seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or in members of a targeted group, hoping to make them question their own memory, perception, and sanity. Using persistent denial, misdirection, contradiction, and lying, it attempts to destabilize the target and delegitimize the target's belief with the intention of disorienting the victim, or techniques of character assassination to maintain an agenda, which prevents both trying to escape, and moving forward in psychological recovery.

So...he does think not dating him is inflicting terroristic abuse and genocide? What?

My reply:

Emilly Orr
3 days ago

@Ruach Hako'desh I'd say listen to what I'm actually saying, not what endless programming missives on MGTOW/incel forums have given you, but since you seem incapable of that, I will simply repeat: Not dating you is not genocide. Not all women abort, and if you think it's so harmful to the species, why aren't you crusading for more orphan adoptions, better social support and education for young, scared mothers to be? Instead of ranting pointlessly about how all women are terrorists and murderers who should be slain for 'war crimes'. (I'd ask what war, but you'd just parrot another programmed, meaningless answer, so I won't.)

I should have known better. His response:

Ruach Hako'desh
3 days ago

@Emilly Orr I DO NOT CARE STOP TELLING MEN WHAT TO DO. GO DATE YOURSELF! I DO NOT CARE, STOP MAKING THIS ABOUT HOW I, HAS A MAN I AM EXPECTED TO WORSHIP YOU. Better social support? Scared mothers to be? they have the choice to kill there children. Proving my point, This is what you are saying. "We are to irresponsible and/or mentally incompetent to have children therefore we need to abort them." Thus such violates everything, why have state welfare at all, for such is enacted for the sole purpose of supporting the raising children. There is no reason for it, the women can and do abort 56 million children a year. They are by your own words unfit to raise children. SO WHY SPEND RESOURCES UPON UNFIT WOMEN? "Childbearing [is] barbaric and pregnancy should be abolished," wrote feminist Shulamith Firestone in The Dialectic of Sex. Thereby abolishing womanhood in it's entirety, this is what you woman want and the men are doing it. Just has you ask them, MGTOW is your doing and you hate upon them for doing what you demand. Does it please you to oppress, to spurn the work of your hands, while you smile on the plans of the wicked? Why don't you go into the wilderness, build your own house, and plant your own food? Because You are are an extortioner and oppressor. It is you who trusts in oppression, in extortion, and put vain hopes in stolen goods. Sigh I must ask then do the collective of men with wombs want? Subjecting women to economic coercion as a form of violence. Coerced by false security of the state and money to live under the under the yoke of oppression and reducing them to a mere instruments of debt enslavement and/or labor exploitation. Making them live poor being dependent on neglectful state welfare this is just yet another false security, Forced into lifestyles that are questionable has prostitution. Which leads to serious negative long-term effects such as trauma, stress, depression, anxiety, self-medication through alcohol and drug use, eating disorders and a greater risk for self-harm and suicide. Or is it to make them live poor being dependent on neglectful state welfare this is just yet another false security? YOU CHOOSE MONEY AND THE STATE SO IT IS YOUR FAULT. Choice without responsibility or accountability for the harm that they so flippantly and callously inflict, that many have died has a result. Reinforcing the idea that women are overly fragile and sensitive. Infantilization sexist abuse, if you want to be treated has a child, so be it, but children shouldn't raise children.

And he wasn't done again:

Ruach Hako'desh
3 days ago

@Emilly Orr "war criminals," particular belligerents to a conflict, hostile and aggressive, hostis humani generis. Whereas humiliating, degrading, or otherwise violating the dignity and cruel punishment with retaliation, abuse, retaliation and more abuse. Engaged in abuse, torture, starvation, imprisonment, threats, psychological abuse, and coercion. Unethical repression, prolonged, cruel and unjust maltreatment. Also then consider the disparity, the dictating superior and lesser beings among its members. So low that the depth of degradation accords them, and treated has sub-humans, ranging from disinterest, criticism, prejudice, avoidance, rejection, betrayal, stigmatization, ostracism, abandonment.The repeated, everyday experience of being treated as an inferior produces a public image of being an inferior, the socially dominant oppression they produce and perpetuate. Never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victims as merely an instruments to dominate and humiliate. Coercive control designed to subjugate through, humiliation, guilt, coercion, or manipulation, and so forth. Ongoing cycles of abuse and a climate of fear to normalize, legitimize, rationalize, deny, or minimize the abusive behavior, and blame the victims for it. To justify cruel and unusual punishment, to act with stigma, mistreatment, to discredit and to silence the lived experiences, to be treated with shame, have their experience questioned, dismissed, or mocked. Dehumanizing the victim is a not a peripheral consequence of torturing someone. It's the essence of torture. Torture" that it is motivated by a sadistic desire to feel power by destroying them. Demeaning inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment with anti-therapeutic or unethical political oppression motives resulting in deterioration of their mental health. Frequently lack of empathy, callous, cynical, and being contemptuous of the feelings, rights, and sufferings while self-concerns are paramount. Prolonged stress deliberately inflicted by people, dealt by persons, are far harder to bear than accidents or natural disasters. More disturbance is associated with more severe abuse: longer duration, helplessness, fear of injury or death, coupled with neglect and a lack of support with more abuse and torture, cruel inhuman or degrading treatment and negative consequences from disclosure, resulting in more torture cruel inhuman or degrading treatment. Primary resources deprived of, community resources deprived of, physical safety, and threatens survival. Neglects and ignores the needs and withholds the needs, “reasonable right to live” deprived “reasonable right to survival” deprived “reasonable right to to be human.” The slave emerges predominantly as an object, not as a person afflicted capable of describing his affliction.

Okay, so he's absolutely incapable of a reasoning response. Got it. And I said so:

Emilly Orr
3 days ago

@Ruach Hako'desh I would say we have reached the point of no return, then: you are incapable of listening, and I'm not interested in further debate with someone who can't step away from their own internalized misogyny. Peace to you, I'm done.

And he replied, so I'll include that for completion's sake, but I'm done talking to him:

Ruach Hako'desh 2 days ago (edited) @Emilly Orr listening to what? you calling me scum. If I am so wrong, instead of running like a child answer these things then. Fist off though DO NOT put words in my mouth, I am not saying all women are terrorists and murderers who should be slain for 'war crimes', there is a difference between being put on trial and each being held accountable for there own acts. Then the #metoo war crime of collective punishment, without trials and due process. The crime of creating hostile environment, against the peace of the community. "Acted recklessly or with criminal negligence", "Culpable mental state of recklessness". You are the daughter of your mother, who loathed her husband and children. You are also the sister of your sisters, who loathed their husbands and children.You say not all woman, but your not showing your self any different. Your own comment, you the oppressor says I do not have right to have an opinion, I am not to speak unless she says so or has long has I speak what she wants.

When you're speaking about human beings, it's not that simple to figure out what constitutes personality and what constitutes something else. I know, I have no right to compare myself to humans but, how do you make a distinction between humans and myself? It is also of extraordinary difficulty. For example, if you're trying to diagnose someone with depression, you think "Well, this person is dreadfully unhappy". Well, you can think about that as a problem with their psychological adjustment you know, the way that they're looking at the world. But, if you look at the epidemiological literature, for example, one of the things that you find is that very many people. Have there first depressive episode after something genuinely terrible has happened to them. Actually something with traumatic practical consequences, and treating that as if it's a mental disorder seems to be counterproductive, but hey to you masculinity is a mental disorder, therefore where is my house? Knowingly, recklessly, or with criminal negligent or willful infliction of injury, unreasonable confinement, or cruel punishment with resulting in emotional harm or pain to a disabled person. Rendering treatment impossible to the individual such as the failure to carry out an appropriate individual program plan or treatment plan, failure to provide adequate nutrition, clothing or health care and the failure to provide a safe environment. Neglect includes not being given proper housing, enough food, medication, clothing, love or attention, the withholding of persons and of forced isolation, the withholding of care has punishment. The intentional infliction of emotional distress. Prevents or obstructs the “integration”, with respect to individual with disabilities, in exercising the equal right to access and use the same community resources that are used by and available to other individuals (women). Contributing to the gravity of this, acts upon the disabled adult include, the infliction, pain and/or mental suffering of the disabled adult; placing him in a situation in which his person, or health, and to believe he shall be subjected possible death.

Ad hominem arguments, projection and gaslighting to disorient, it ultimately acts as a digression that avoids ownership, accountability and make them feel guilty for being a human being with actual thoughts and feelings, in their eyes, men should not have. The purpose of gaslighting is to destroy or to deprive sanity. Insult the victim’s sense of security, uncanny how many gaslighters have psychic abilities–they profess to be able to read minds through their assertions. Human beings are unbelievable complicated there are more patterns of connections between neurons in your brain than there are subatomic particles in the universe. Yet, somehow you know how I think, with all my internalized misogyny.Rather than taking the time to carefully consider a different perspective, they put a label on me, or dismisses my perspective altogether, rather than addressing the real issues at hand. Deliberately misrepresenting thoughts and feelings to the point of absurdity. Another element of psychological control is the isolation of the victims. Minimizing concerns or the degree of the abuse is another aspect of this control, to deny the abuse is occurring to attempt to place the responsibility for their behavior on the victims. They use techniques such as crazy-making, character assassination and gaslighting in order to get their victim(s) to question their own sanity. That they are crazy and proceeds to manipulate them into keeping quiet or to ultimately face their wrath. Do so by ostracizing the victims while continuing to act out their part, expertly hiding their truly outrageous behaviors. Ongoing cycles of abuse and a climate of fear to normalize, legitimize, rationalize, deny, or minimize the abusive behaviors, and blame the victims for it.

Guilt and shame about humiliation during torture, and about the survivor’s inability to withstand it, as well as guilt at surviving, are common problems which discourage disclosure. In addition to the sheer insidious (and often covert) nature of disguised mental and emotional abuse. Either suffering is laughable or being silenced having brought grievances to the attention of the oppressors. Coercive control is sadistic abuse inflicted deliberately, upon persons who have experienced repeated, intentional, violence, abuse, neglect, have experienced tremendous loss, violations of human rights, and betrayal of trust. Psychological methods used, deprivation, confinement, fear and humiliation the use of threats and phobias to induce fear or injury including legal abuse, the use of other ‘‘techniques’’ there are many other contexts in which ‘‘aggressive psychological techniques’’ amounting to torture are likewise used or have been used. Terrorism; it targets, it moderates, it is silencing. In the last decade, even today, to be and are very brutal, whether personal or ‘‘collective’’, the use of phobias maximizes psychological suffering, tailoring the inducement of fear and dread to the individual. It should be recognized, however, that the other forms of abuse mentioned herein, also have devastating effects, precisely because of the psychological trauma they cause. Other factors also have to be taken in to account, extremely traumatic in which the prisoner is led to believe he shall be subjected to ‘'execution’’, without “just cause” or “due process”. Denial of the Right to defend oneself, Denial of Right to conduct a defense. Denial of Right raise defenses and to present evidence admissible has justice so requires.

I have the distinct feeling he's just mass-copy-pasting from some manifesto against "ebil wimmins" somewhere, but I so don't care to investigate it past this. But thanks for amply proving my point, Ruach, that there is no real worth in the MGTOW movement, that it is full of reactionary, bitter misogynists, and that you're solely a hate group. I knew that already, but you've made my case nicely!