and I think it's gonna be a long long time, 'til touch down brings me round again to find

This is going to be anonymized, as per usual, but because it's openly from Caledon chat, curious sorts may be able to add up the X's and come to correct conclusions. I can't help that, I thought it was more of value to post it.

[13:03] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: May i ask a question of you. When we were looking for rentals in Caledon we just went from sim to sim. Is there an actual rental office?

Near as I know, from my years of involvement, there has never been a rental office with the actual plots for rent. To be fair, such a thing is a common practice on other estates; I went to the sim's rental office both to scan plots available and to rent on behalf of Gearhaven when I rented a parcel in New Babbage, and when dealing with both mainland and island estates elsewhere, there have been actual offices with parcels or plots for rent.

But, to Des' credit, in Rosehaven-once-Winterfell, I rented two conjoined parcels, then later the Duke of Gearhaven rented a third across the river from the first two, that were all 'found' via discussion with the Princess. And when it was still Winterfell, I rented, in turn, three separate parcels, one after another, from the Empress, so...not every sim that offers resident rentals operates with the rental office model.

[13:03] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: no, but talk to [Jxxxx]

Keeping with my usual practice of bolding moderators in chat groups, and, in this case, estate managers or owners of sims.

[13:03] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: No, there is no rental office. However, you may want to contact [Mxxx Mxxxxxxx], who takes care of it for Desmond Shang. [Jxxxx] is not available at the moment.
[13:04] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: we found a place. and we have spoken to [Jxxxx]. He sorted out our land for us. Took a lot to figure out who to ask though. Is a bit secret society lol
[13:05] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: more laid back than secret

I would agree, but to be fair, I understand Ms. B's point, too. It's not as easy as finding a box, paying the box, and clicking a group invite board, to get land in Caledon. There used to be long waiting lists. Even now, when there is less demand, it is far from an instantaneous process. It can take up to 72 real-time hours in a good week to go from desiring a parcel, to getting it set in one's name and ready for building. And that's always been the way Caledon operates.

[13:05] PPxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Des used to do a lot of this himself, but he changed jobs and is working very long hours, so he delegated a little.
[13:05] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: if we are a secret society, no one has told me
[13:06] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: gathered that. Perhaps in the info offices there could be information on who to contact for rental issues, land deeding etc. Just a suggestion

This is not a terrible idea she's proposing. I honestly don't know how it would work, as Des or an EM must be on site to transfer parcels, so they are bound to officers with specific clearances. Changing that system to something that could be managed by rental boxes would be...problematic at best, and violently chaotic at worst.

[13:07] Emilly Orr: It is less secretive than just...things slip through the cracks. There was someone who was handling rentals full-time, I think RL claimed her back for a bit; then [Jxxxx]; [Mxxx]'s likely been doing land management and contacts for some time, but first I heard of it was today, so I am out of the loop.
[13:08] Jxxxxx Zxxx: The secret instructions are posted on the wall, in the Lecture Hall.

This may or may not be in jest, but to be fair, I'd have to go look to make sure. If they are, in fact, posted in the Lecture Hall, then that means the instructions on how to rent in Caledon, as well as the text of the full Caledon covenant (which I know is somewhere in Oxbridge, I have seen it in person), as well as other information on individual sims, are all available somewhere in Oxbridge Village. So it's far from secret and arcane.

[13:08] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx needs to see if they are updated
[13:08] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: And perhaps a group joiner when you rent. That would be helpful. Just my 2 cents for what it is worth

Again, Caledon is not an open group, and I truly think this is not going to change. Would it be easier to make Caledon an open group, not bound to an invite system? Sure. But with it bound to invites only, this ensures that the only people in the Independent States of Caledon group have some level of investment in Caledon. That makes sense, doesn't it?

[13:08] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx hums... the words of the prophet were written on the subway wall...
[13:09] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx rechecks his spectacles to look at the secrets.
[13:09] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: We used to have a class on What to Do in Caledon that ended with everyone in the class becoming Caledonian if they wanted, but the professor who taught that has left SL.

That might be a good class to restart.

[13:09] Dxxxx Wxxxxx hums... and tenement halls...
[13:10] Emilly Orr: You know, that is a good point. Des offered me group membership before I ever rented, because I'd shown up at several dances. I never thought to ask.
[13:10] Dxxxxxxxxxxxxx Exxxx: Hey how hard would it be to include a rental reference in the covenant of each sim?

Probably fairly easy, once it was in print, as t'were. But now? Each listing would have to be updated by hand, that would be a crushing amount of work.

[13:10] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Since then, any peer of Caledon can offer you membership

Admittedly, I did not know this. Good to know.

[13:10] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: you need the magic monacle, I think, Mr. [Sxxxxxxx]
[13:10] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx still likes to original Simon and Garfunkel
[13:10] Dxxxx Wxxxxx checks her covenant
[13:10] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: If anyone who has rented would like to become part of Independent State of Caledon, please say so and I will send an invitation.

Of course, she's asking in a group which is invite-only, about members who are not currently in the invite-only group, but...thanks for the offer?

[13:11] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: Please see Caledon's covenant in the region: "Caledon Oxbridge"
[13:11] Dxxxxxxxxxxxxx Exxxx: me, me, I would!!
[13:11] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: exactly [Dxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
[13:11] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: that's what Kitti says
[13:11] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [DME], you've been here longer than I have.
[13:11] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Well, this is the ISC group...
[13:11] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Yes [Pxxxxxx]. but you have to be able to know who those peers are
[13:11] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: can't put anything past you, Mr. [Sxxxxxxx]
[13:12] Dxxxxxxxxxxxxx Exxxx: darn, I'm so old the trees are new
[13:12] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: :-)
[13:12] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: just as an outsider I see a couple of things that in my opnion could be better

I think the phrase you're searching for, Ms. B, is "more efficient". It would definitely be more efficient, and even easier, but would it be "better"? I'm not sure. I'm offering the suggestion only to a wider audience.

Also, if someone one is physically looking at is wearing the correct ISC group tag, it will say "Peer" if they are a member of the group. So it's less knowing who to ask as much as it is just finding a group member.

[13:12] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Mrs. [Bxxxxx], I sent an invitation, but it says you're already a Caledonian
[13:12] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: which means you are not an outsider.
[13:12] Dxxxxxxxxxxxxx Exxxx: ...as evidenced by this conversation
[13:12] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: yes. only took 3 weeks and many messages to Des

See above mentions of massive overwork. He tries, he tries hard, but he's only one estate owner with a lot of estatess.

[13:13] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Or you could come to Oxbridge and ask

Which is actually fairly well-advertised, in Oxbridge itself, in Victoria City, in the Guvnah's Mansion, and over countless Linden-owned and citizen-owned forums and discussion boards.

[13:13] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: We are there to answer questions and attempt to solve problems.
[13:13] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Yes [Pxxxxxx]. My point is who do you ask?
[13:13] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Me.
[13:13] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: well before today I never heard of you

And again, this isn't an unfair point. Who do you ask about land information in a place that doesn't operate by expected rules? She came in knowing only larger estates with land offices, or those places where one ports just to look a plot over and suddenly receives an IM out of the blue, or is descended upon by some rapacious sales agent who will willingly SHOW YOU EVERYTHING JUST RENT RIGHT NOW YES RIGHT NOW YES--

(Yes, this has happened when I've rented places, especially on mainland, or even just been looking. Or, 70% of the time, just ported to a place a store used to be that no longer exists.)

[13:14] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: You haven't been to Oxbridge, then.
[13:14] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: you have to be in the group to find people

She's not wrong.

[13:14] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I have yes. many times
[13:14] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: anyways just my opinion. There should be info when you rent as to who to contact. There is only Des and he does not answer
[13:15] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: Back to the reference to "Please see Caledon's covenant in the region: 'Caledon Oxbridge'"
[13:15] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: As I was saying, if you want to know something and don't know who to ask, come to Oxbridge.
[13:15] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: Where would one look in Caledon Oxbridge?
[13:15] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: In the Hall of Caledon
[13:15] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: exactly [Dxxxx]
[13:15] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: th Plaza, fo anyone with a staff group tag
[13:15] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: perhaps that could be more clear - maybe a URL would be helpful
[13:15] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: We have tutors, assistant deans and deans.
[13:16] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: all of whom can be helpful to visitors.
[13:16] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: we are pathologically helpful
[13:16] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: well the times I have been at Oxbridge I have not seen anyone that is wearing a tag

This surprises me, unless she happened to go at such obscure, strange times that literally no dean or advisor was awake. Personally, I have never--quite literally meant--gone to Oxbridge without seeing at least one Oxbridge dean, advisor, or assistant tag. But then, my times are SLT, so...that may be why?

[13:16] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: yes, but someone not familiar may not know that... I do see Mrs. [Bxxxx]'s point.
[13:17] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I do not see a solution to anything coming out of this raising of ire, though.
[13:17] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: having rented in many other sims, you rent, get a group tag, get the land deeded, have contact names etc etc. I just think the system needs tweakign for newcomers
[13:17] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: not Oxbridge Tutor? Oxbridge Dean? COU Assistant Dean, Mrs [Bxxx]?
[13:17] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: nope [Txxxx]
[13:17] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: ok
[13:17] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: perhaps it is the times I was there
[13:17] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: yes, could be
[13:18] Emilly Orr: Now, wait. Des does answer. But understand, there's only one of him and several entire sims of us. He will answer when he has time, which is, some weeks, in very short supply.
[13:18] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Caledon is lovely.
[13:18] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I get that Emily. but when you try and rent and all contact goes unanswered then there needs to be a second person to contact. and that should be on the rental info

Is this a viable solution to the problem, though? Because, at the heart of it, while Des most definitely wants Caledon to survive, and thrive if it is able, he does not want another bout of heedless expansion that will destroy the nature of the place. Perhaps setting these limits is one way of making sure that those who are only interested in instant gratification move somewhere else.

[13:18] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Just trying to make suggestions so it is easier for newcomers
[13:19] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: anyways. Caledon is lovely. and love living here. Byeee
[13:19] Emilly Orr: Oh, I understand, and you are right, Caledon does do things in a very different way from...well, everyone I've ever dealt with.
[13:19] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: uhm
[13:19] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: In the past there has been more than one person to contact :3
[13:20] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: it would help if all contacts were on rental info.
[13:20] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: whether or not they still are EMS....
[13:20] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: we are still waiting on land to be deeded
[13:21] Emilly Orr: To be fair, there's never been an official list of who is and isn't an EM. It's just sort of ...known.
[13:21] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I get that Emily. But as a newcomer there is no known

True, but maybe that's also part of the culture of Caledon. Some things are acquired directly--land, titles, group membership. Other things are more gathered by osmosis--the history, the running jokes, the forms of address, the ways in which information is exchanged, taught, debated, understood. Again, much of this is not instantaneous, and I don't think it should be.

[13:21] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Mr. [Sxxxxxx] used to be one..
[13:21] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I have no idea if he still is though.
[13:22] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: look do not get me wrong as we love it here at Caledon. Finally found the part of SL I have been looking for. I hate those beach sims etc
[13:22] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: He is an EM for part of Caledon.
[13:22] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [Jxxxx] is Regent, he has the same access as Des... but he is not around right now
[13:22] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: but I just think some newcomer friendly stuff would help
[13:22] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I agree [Txxxx]. Hes always been quick at getting back to me with land info though
[13:22] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: can we accept that we have not done as well as we could here, and that the Powers that Be in Caledon have heard, or will be told shortly?
[13:23] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: we do seem to be going over the same stuff again and again
[13:23] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx nods.
[13:23] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I never disagreed.
[13:24] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: And, Oxbridge is not Caledon itself. It is run independently and pays its own tier.
[13:24] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: was trying to point out people who may be able to assist Mrs. [Bxxxxx] quicker
[13:24] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: I can accept that the issue has been raised, [Txxxx]
[13:24] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: ty
[13:24] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: [Mxxx] was a good suggestion.
[13:24] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: not trying to stir trouble. Just looking in from the outside
[13:24] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: perhaps a list of people at each info point?
[13:25] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Info point?

She's either talking rental offices again, or a central, controlled port-in point--which, to be fair, some sims have, and information on larger Caledon events have been posted there. She's saying perhaps another board with a list of current EMs to contact in case of questions or issues, and I suppose that could work, but again, it's taking up prim space on what is usually very small, usually round parcels of community land.

[13:25] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: on a a couple of the sims I have found what looks like an info office
[13:26] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: More a landing point, I believe.
[13:26] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: or cake sales point
[13:26] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: cake sale? nice
[13:27] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: we believe in freedom and cake, I think... some other stuff too
[13:28] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Mrs. [Bxxxxx], did you need a list or is everything all good?
[13:29] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: The older sims are hubbed -- landing points. Not all have them.

This is true.

[13:29] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: The is no list of EMs for each sim, because not all EMs want to be publicly known and a few are unlikely to even be in SL these days. Any effort in that direction is not encouraged.

This is also true. And it is their right to remain anonymous to the populace at large. Des honors that choice.

[13:29] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: we know how to contact [Jxxxx]. So that will be ok. All we need now is someone to deed land
[13:29] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: ah.
[13:30] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Des, [Jxxxx] and [Mxxx], best bet is [Mxxx] right now
[13:30] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx nods.
[13:30] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Which would likely be [Jxxxx] when here (but not right now), [Mxxx Mxxxxxxx], or [Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxx].
[13:30] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: ok thanks. making note of the names
[13:30] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: I just yell in ISC when I need assistance - there is almost always someone there to help.
[13:30] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [Kxxxxxx] was the other one I was thinking of.
[13:31] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Perhaps instead of trying to ask to be added to the Caldeon group it could just have a joiner button?

No, because it's invite-only, and quite likely to remain so.

[13:31] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: [Jxxxx] is on travel and not likely to be in this week.
[13:31] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: that would be easier
[13:31] Jxxxxx Zxxx: Like the on on the wall behind me?

If there is a group join board for ISC at Oxbridge, that's news to me. I thought it was still invite-only.

[13:32] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: It also would make it harder to control. No joiner button is likely.
[13:32] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: that would be the Caledon Oxbridge University Group, but actually a good pace to ask

Ah, okay, makes more sense. The Caledon Oxbridge group is open-join.

[13:32] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: seems i have stirred debate
[13:32] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx giggles.
[13:32] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: or perhaps food for thought
[13:33] Pxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Caledon has its own culture, and for that reason was set up to allow time for people to see if they are comfortable here before becoming members.
[13:33] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: as a lot of the 3000 members are also in ISC
[13:33] sxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Nothing better on a rainy and cool afternoon than a debate, Mrs. [Bxxxx] :)
[13:33] Dxxxx Wxxxxx: ... while sipping tea
[13:33] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx smiles... very rainy in Wales, but then it always is

There began a short diversion into global weather, which I chose to excise, as this is already going to be long enough on its own.

[13:36] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: oh and for the record I speak only for myself. My Sl partners opinions are his own. As are mine

More commentary on rain that I'm deleting for length.

[13:56] bxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Anyways thanks to you all. Have a lovely evening

Conversation returned to ISC "normal" at that point, which is to say, all over the place...but Ms. B does have several points, and good ones. It's not a way Caledon has ever behaved, and there have been reasonable and historic reasons why, but I do wonder if it would somehow benefit Caledon as a whole to behave--at least a little--like other sims on the grid.

On the heels of that, just a bit of random weirdness from another rental announcement:

[14:01] jxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: i have a small announcement... more like a tease.... for some that may be interested... although im not giving out any details as of yet
[14:02] Jxxx Sxxxxxxxx: Then house is that an announcement or tease!
[14:02] Mxxxx Sxxxxxxx puts the flame thrower down, "Go on...."
[14:02] Jxxx Sxxxxxxxx: Something is coming!
[14:02] jxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Rentals are coming
[14:02] Fxxx Jxxxxx: 'I am Ironman!'
[14:02] Emilly Orr blinks. "Rentals?"
[14:02] Jxxx Sxxxxxxxx flails
[14:03] Emilly Orr: Rentals with tentacles!
[14:03] Mxxxx Sxxxxxxx: Oooo
[14:03] Jxxx Sxxxxxxxx: Tentarentals?
[14:03] Pxxxxxx Exxxx: wat
[14:03] Jxxx Sxxxxxxxx: Rentacles?
[14:03] Emilly Orr: Rentacles!
[14:03] Emilly Orr cackles

I just had to, yes. It amused me.