And this should be the last of it. The whole series for anyone who may have missed parts of it, to date:

Part the first, wherein a certain resident flies a Confederate flag in defiance of...something.
Part the second, wherein the resident population tries to convince her this is a bad idea.
Part the third, wherein histories are explained and notices are sent.
Part the fourth, wherein even more history is explained, the conversation wanders, and the certain resident begins to realize what she's done.
Part the fifth, wherein a well-known resident decides that she is Leaving SL Forever over the issue.
Part the sixth, wherein the Guv'nah sends out a lengthy notice explaining his reasoning in depth.
Part the seventh, wherein books, films, theme parks and politics are mentioned.

Now you're caught up. You may proceed.

[22:55] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You don't really want to white-wash the bad bits of history, but that doesn't mean I want to play in it.
[22:56] Lxxx Sxxxxx: We have better intrigues.
[22:56] Lxxx Sxxxxx: With blimps.
[22:56] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: and tentacles
[22:56] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: lol
[22:56] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And fancy shoes!
[22:56] lxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Bunnehs!
[22:56] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and clockwork
[22:57] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and faeries
[22:57] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: and cookies...

Never forget about the cookies.

[22:57] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And two pairs of goggles for every head.
[22:57] Sxxxxx Hxxxxxxxxxx: Well, as kids, we often had a myopic view of how the world was. And that's what we want to bring back, the world of our innocence.
[22:57] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and the ocasionally really kinky labs with leather tables :)
[22:57] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: and pretty glowy rocks that make things float
[22:58] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Tentacles will offend a whole other group of people.
[22:58] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: Catgirls might too, but by Bast, I'm not takin' off my tail. *snerks*
[22:59] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Feed the kluxers to the tentacles, on second thought, nah, that is a culinary ofense, even with good hot sauce :)
[22:59] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: (plus I don't think Des is gonna be banning catgirls any time soon. ;-p)
[22:59] Cxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxx cackles
[23:00] Lxxx Sxxxxx: That's unfathomable!

Oh, that was a terrible pun.

[23:00] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: oh almost forgot...hugs da stuffin out of des....smiles
[23:00] Desmond Shang: :) thanks
[23:00] Lxxx Sxxxxx gets smothered in her barnacleness.
[23:01] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: confused people when i changed my name from [kxxx] to [cxxxxx]...lol
[23:01] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: An interesting story here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/the-confederate-general-who-was-erased-from-history_us_599b3747e4b06a788a2af43e?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004
[23:01] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Did that name change happen when you came into dough?

That was terrible, and sadly, it's a play on words that now only makes sense to me and the few detectives who bother to sort out the limited clues.

[23:02] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: lol
[23:02] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: bottom line, is it safe to say that most here back Des?
[23:02] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I say AYE
[23:02] Cxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxx: As do I.
[23:02] Desmond Shang: this was not a happy decision, i see no victory in it whatsoever.
[23:03] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: that';s your chocie des, and I am not beign malicious, however, lI am glsd you did it

Ooof. "Choice", obviously, I think "being" goes without correcting, but "glad" stymied me for a bit.

[23:03] lxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I support Des in this. And thank [Wxxx] for his clarity.
[23:03] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: Sometimes tough decisions have to be made in the now to avoid bigger issues down the road.
[23:03] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: because I did not want to look over my shoulkder and wonder who was going to come here and mess thigns up

"Shoulder" was pretty easy to figure out. So was "things".

[23:03] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: or, what [Gxxxxxx] said
[23:03] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: exactly
[23:04] mxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I support Des in this.
[23:04] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and decison kicked down the line tend to catch up
[23:04] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: No victory, but it keeps symbols that are now, with hijacked meaning, definitely inconsistent with civility and tolerance out of Caledon.
[23:05] Dxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I don't believe we should have political signs in Caledon. If we are in Victorian Caledon how/why would we have political signs from the future?
[23:05] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Time Machines
[23:05] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: We used to have a Time Machine store in Port Caledon
[23:05] Desmond Shang: [Dxxx] for about two years I did have a 'no politics' clause in the covenant, i relaxed it because the topic was coming up and i didn't want to suppress people if there wasn't a reason.
[23:05] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: I think it's still around but vortexed to Inworldz
[23:07] Desmond Shang: one other comment, yes you bet there *are* people who want to role play this or that odious thing. mostly obvious trolls, but also some that are quite serious.
[23:07] Desmond Shang: (that was in general, not to [Dxxx] per se)
[23:09] Dxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: thank you
[23:09] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: I imagine there are probably Civil War re-enactment folks who would love to do something in a virtual world. But...Linden's pretty much put the nix on it last year sooooo...not sure it'd even be an issue at this point.
[23:09] Desmond Shang: i had one person come by some years ago that appeared as an autistic black man in a wheelchair. there's no fast way to know if it's a troll, or someone who is simply disabled and matching his RL appearance
[23:09] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: I went to a Civil War region, they had one Conf flag
[23:10] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: hell, there is a conti9ngent that is mad at video games, specifly castle woflenstein, because the nqazis are bad guys

"Contingent" barely needs correction, but do you mean "specifically"? And I'm pretty sure you mean "Nazis" also.

[23:10] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I am not a dark elf in Real Life. Just in case anyone was wondering.
[23:10] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: now,,castle [f*ckign] wolfenstein, one of the oldest games around
[23:10] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and people are mad thatb you fight nazis
[23:10] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: ?????
[23:10] lxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I had someone come through Oxbridge. The first time in a wheelchair, the next in massive wheelchair and braces (as on teeth). either a strange fetish or attention seeking. She didn't get much attention, I must say.
[23:10] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I mean, has anyone here NOTn played that game? it has been aiorund since the 80's

"Around".

[23:11] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I'm surprised the "sex in video games is sinful" people on the right and the "sex in video games is misogynistic" on the left never really went after SL.
[23:12] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: only because they do not know
[23:12] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and heave hjoppe they do not

Now we're getting into major reinterpretation. "Heaven hope"?

[23:12] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: They're too busy having sex in SL
[23:12] Desmond Shang: i really 'get' that honest civil war enactors aren't trying to be evil, or airplane war games are promoting the 3rd reich. the issues i've had, weren't like that
[23:12] lxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: LOL [Axxxxxx]
[23:12] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: when i was wearing my oriental look...i had a guy tell me i should go home.....i asked if he was born in the states.....he said no...so i said then i don't need to go "home" either...
[23:14] Desmond Shang: also, i've had a lot of questions about if my decision was politically motivated. the answer is no. if anyone really wants to know my RL politics I'll say (I'm not democrat or republican).
[23:14] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: That's the great thing about my look. Everyone (but fellow nerds) has no idea what I am :)
[23:16] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: i also get that in rl...half scot...half japanese....been in texas since i was 3 weeks old...
[23:16] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Green? Libertarian? Whig?
[23:16] Zxxxx Exxxxxxx: Des, your (or our) RL political views are no one else's business IMO. The change in policy is against hate groups/symbols/speech, as it should be.
[23:16] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: He's a Purrlaimentarian
[23:16] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: lol
[23:16] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I bet you have a Texas accent that baffles them
[23:16] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: yes i do...smiles
[23:17] Lxxx Sxxxxx: My accent baffles [Wxxxx] because it isn't "movie Texas" enough.
[23:17] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: No one talks like that outside of Movie Texas
[23:17] Lxxx Sxxxxx: She's learning that. But it still gives her giggles when I "y'all"
[23:17] Desmond Shang: this may be hard to believe, but i was a republican for about ... 28? years. mainly for economic reasons. went independent after the gop voted to bail out the banks. i saw it as a betrayal. didn't vote for any major pres candidate.
[23:18] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx slips from Dixie Carter southern into all out Ozark hillbilly if I'm drunk enough.
[23:18] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: The banks should have been have been broken up as a condition of being bailed out.

I tend to agree. I was raised in the midst of Republicans, so as usual in those situations, I'm a Democrat (or Independent, depending on how frustrated I am with the Dem leadership in any given year), but the last thing the banks needed was full permission to go out and make the same mistakes again. That should have been disallowed at the start.

[23:19] Desmond Shang: i'm too right wing for democrats to love me, but so far left now that the republicans wouldn't want me either. i see them both as 'big money' parties spending us into oblivion and will vote for anyone sane. which has been hard to do lately.
[23:19] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx: amen
[23:19] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: also lived in north caroline when i was young and picked up a bit of a hillbilly accent...lol
[23:20] Rxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Just be you Des ;)
[23:20] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I read in California, Republicans don't even show up on the ballot in many statewide elections.
[23:20] Zxxxx Exxxxxxx: That's not true at all

I'm not even sure where one would get that idea.

[23:21] Desmond Shang: i've never really thought twice about the american south and its politics.
[23:21] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: said it on Friday, Des, totally with you on the ConFed flag issue
[23:21] Lxxx Sxxxxx has seen proof that the south doesn't think twice about it either.
[23:21] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Sometimes it's hard to get the first think.
[23:22] Desmond Shang: shame it had to blow up like this. but as bad as this is, it would have been 1000 times worse.
[23:22] Desmond Shang: incidentally the person i consulted about the confederate flag knows what SL is, but doesn't play. they had no dog in this hunt.
[23:24] Desmond Shang: alright it seems we are pretty much talked out on this, is that fair to say, for tonight?
[23:24] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: The "confederate flag" everyone thinks about wasn't even the actual Confederate Flag.
[23:24] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: The election are top two voter getters, so after a primary the Rep can be toast for the general
[23:24] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Louisiana does that too.
[23:24] hxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxxx: Do I get tea with my toast?
[23:24] Desmond Shang: tea is in the harbour
[23:24] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: or a mimosa
[23:25] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Someone needs to rez tea crates under Sky City.
[23:25] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: on my way ;p

Okay, next time I'm in I must heck for floating tea crates underneath Steam SkyCity.

[23:25] Lxxx Sxxxxx: "But Des said so!"
[23:26] Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxxx: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/9b/bc/9c/9bbc9c18d3762bed4f5ff39a2c03724a--boston-tea-parties-history-major.jpg
[23:26] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: You might appreciate this cartoon, Governor:
[23:26] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: https://townhall.com/political-cartoons/2017/08/22/152509
[23:26] Desmond Shang: indeed
[23:26] Lxxx Sxxxxx has a kettle and makes coffee with it.
[23:27] Desmond Shang: oh one last thing ~ i'm going to log in a moment, screaming headache RL here, but just this
[23:28] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx is a Brit, has a kettle... NEVER, ever, ever makes tea... filthy stuff
[23:28] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: makes tea in the coffee maker and when it died i made coffee in the hot tea maker....grins

You gotta use what you have, I guess.

[23:28] Desmond Shang: some people are NOT pleased with the decision and have decided to go with 'state' flags here to celebrate pride in their RL state
[23:28] Desmond Shang: i don't have any issue with state flags.
[23:28] Desmond Shang: even if they look sorta similar.
[23:29] Emilly Orr nods.
[23:29] Emilly Orr: I'm honestly surprised we have people making an issue of this. It just seems like common sense to me.
[23:29] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Hmmm State flags, like Mondrago, or Babbage, or New Toulouse, or ....
[23:29] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: If I was going to fly a non-Caledon flag here, I would probably fly the Texas flag myself.
[23:29] Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxxx: Best flag: https://i.cbc.ca/1.2770547.1411064931!/fileImage/httpImage/image.png_gen/derivatives/16x9_1180/flag-of-british-columbia-was-adopted-in-1960.png
[23:29] Desmond Shang: like georgia state flag or whatever.

 Exactly.

[23:30] Cxxxxxx Fxxxxxxx: May I say something, I'm a born raised Mississippian, born in 1960 one hundred year after the start of the war. I flew the flag most of my life because it was still a sense of country. the Confederacy. But I won't today it is no longer a symbol of a country but of a movement. When the war came the Confederacy was not all about slavery it centered on states rights. the right of the states to govern themselves without the federal government controlling or interferring. Well the slavery issue was more emotional so it took center stage, which is fine. Slavery was already about to be on it's way out thanks to john Deere who started in 1837 inventing the things to replace humans. Today it is no doubt the stars and bars are seen by many as a symbol of hate, but let us not forget it is a flag of a country that was conquered. Above all I am an American, a citizen of the Untied States and I served in it's Navy for 13 years. I served beside blacks, Asians, Hispanics, and good ol mutts.
[23:30] Cxxxxxx Fxxxxxxx: If I happen to have a Confederate flag show some time well excuse me but I can tell you it's a sense of what once was a country my state was a part of and certainly not hate as I have rubbed shoulders with all kinds and we did our jobs during Desert Shield / Storm. And yes [Exxxxxxxx] the flag people think is the Confederate flag is actually a battle flag.

That was wordy, but accurate. 

[23:31] Emilly Orr: That is a lovely flag, the British Columbia one.
[23:31] mxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: It certainly is
[23:32] Dxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: it is the Confederate Battle Flag
[23:33] Desmond Shang: i was aware of the whole 'there are different flags' thing but it's hard to make a concise statement while dealing with all this, i knowingly left it out
[23:34] Emilly Orr: http://www.historynet.com/embattled-banner-the-convoluted-history-of-the-confederate-flag.htm
[23:34] Emilly Orr: But Des is banning all of them.
[23:35] Desmond Shang: basically, yes. I'm not shying away from that.
[23:36] Emilly Orr nods.

And I really do think while it may hurt now, to lose friends who disagree, it's something that needs doing.

[23:36] Emilly Orr: Allow one, it can be argued that others should be allowed. This is a blanket ban.
[23:36] Desmond Shang: what clinched it for me was the cornerstone speech, as described. when the vp of the confederacy states what the confederacy's cornerstone is, i take him for his word. that did it.
[23:36] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Des, any symbol that becomes identified with a hate group, whose meaning has been hijacked by such a group, simply doesn't belong here.
[23:36] Desmond Shang: and, that too.
[23:37] hxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I may keep my Union Jack?
[23:37] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: If the Klan and neo-Nazi groups were smart they would fly the American flag exclusively. But they would probably not be in Klan and neo-Nazi groups if they were smart.
[23:38] Desmond Shang: well, funny you should say that. there's a situation where I had a really ugly issue with that one too (union flag). I'll explain
[23:38] Dxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: They do not have American values
[23:39] Cxxxxxx Fxxxxxxx: He'll need the Union jack to change a tire

Ouch.

[23:39] Desmond Shang: there are some colonial scenarios where flying a union flag over... a really ugly scene is... just, no.
[23:39] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: so no union jack?
[23:39] Desmond Shang: i don't think anyone's using it to grief here.
[23:40] hxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Only to grief you colonials leaving the mother empire :)
[23:40] Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxxx: I was thinking of putting a Union Jack up and reporting it as a Confederate Battle flag to see how many suckers I drew in. That's kinda griefing.
[23:40] Cxxxxxx Fxxxxxxx: uh Des not US union as in Yankees but the British flag which is displayed on their ships
[23:41] Desmond Shang: yes i get that. union jack is the ship flag. 'jack' signifies naval as I recall right?
[23:41] Desmond Shang: union jack should only be navy, it's not 'the' flag
[23:42] Rxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Wxxx: not correct Des common idea but misplaced
[23:42] Rxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Wxxx: https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/british-flags/the-union-jack-or-the-union-flag/
[23:42] Desmond Shang: hmm. looks
[23:43] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: have Hello Kitty flag
[23:43] Cxxxxxx Fxxxxxxx: dear dear Des
[23:43] Lxxx Sxxxxx: I'm just glad it's okay to paint that on top of a Mini Cooper.
[23:43] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: we call our flag the union jack, the red/white ensign is the ship flag
[23:43] Cxxxxxx Fxxxxxxx: It IS the flag of Brtian! 

Or "Britain".

[23:43] Desmond Shang: interesting
[23:44] hxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: GREAT Britian if you please :)

Okay, "GREAT Britain".

[23:44] Desmond Shang: well it's the combo of what, the george cross, the scot saltire and the fitzgerald cross
[23:44] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: but in the UK we have same issue you have with the ConFed flag with our Flag of St George, the flag of England, which has been hijacked in the same way
[23:44] Cxxxxxx Fxxxxxxx: Yes Proper name is Great Britian sorry general

Nope, still "Great Britain".

[23:44] Rxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Wxxx: yeaa white ensign Royal Navy Red ensign merchant navy
[23:45] Exxxxxxxxx Hxxxxxxx: A jack is a national (originally naval) flag flown from a short jackstaff at the bow of a vessel, while the ensign is flown on the stern
[23:45] hxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Quite alright [Cxxxxxx] :)
[23:45] Desmond Shang: i wonder what happens to it if scotland separates. do they lose the blue?
[23:45] Lxxx Sxxxxx has driven by a house in England flying the Texas flag, and is not sure how to take it.
[23:45] Exxxxxxxxx Hxxxxxxx: what about the cross of St Patrick?
[23:45] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: there was talk about that detail, but it never happened
[23:46] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx Thought about flying Harold Godwinson's flag, simply because it was another lost war.
[23:46] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [Lxxx], was it in East Anglea?
[23:46] Desmond Shang: i thought that was the fitzgerald part, i may be wrrong
[23:46] Rxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Wxxx: All getting a bit Sheldon Cooper (｡◕‿◕｡)Lawl(｡◕‿◕｡)
[23:46] Desmond Shang: also there is no welsh dragon on it
[23:46] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: 'cos Wales is a principality not a country

Is that true?

[23:46] Lxxx Sxxxxx: It was ... I can't remember the villlage. Northwest of London.
[23:46] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: doesn't that mean Fergie is at home with the toe guy?
[23:47] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: not north east... just a lot of US airbase to the north east... and US service retirees
[23:47] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Off to bed. Goodnight everyone.
[23:47] Desmond Shang: sleep well
[23:47] Lxxx Sxxxxx waves
[23:47] Rxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Wxxx: .:･.｡❀❀ !Ɲίtє Ɲίtє! ❀❀｡.･:.
[23:49] Desmond Shang: ok i left a LOT of land stuff undone but i'll try to get back in here tomorrow or next day. splitting headache from all this stuff. begs everyone please to get along, i'm not that graceful with dealing with stuff these days.
[23:50] Desmond Shang: good night all.
[23:50] hxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Personally (in RL) I thought flags were symbols of tribalism (yes very obvious). Should get rid of them all. No flags, no arm patches etc
[23:50] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: night Guv
[23:50] hxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Night Des
[23:50] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: get some rest des...hugs....
[23:50] Lxxx Sxxxxx demands rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty
[23:50] Rxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Sweet Dreams, sleep well ;)
[23:51] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: bye Des
[23:51] Cxxxxxx Fxxxxxxx: he's gone
[23:51] Lxxx Sxxxxx loses her barnacle-like grip.

And that seems to, at last, be that. Will Caledon have more departures over this? Who knows? Why we've had departures over this already is baffling enough. All I know is, the rule of the land is still the rule of the land: Courtesy, respect, tolerance, are key, but above all the rest is TOLERANCE. Ad aeternum, ad infinitum.

And then tonight's conversation, because OF COURSE it goes on:

[21:57] Desmond Shang: hi all,
[21:57] lxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx waves!!!!!!!!
[21:57] Desmond Shang: please bear with me, i've been at about 40 words a minute typing for the past... howeverr long I've been on
[21:57] Lxxx Sxxxxx waves
[21:57] Desmond Shang: going to try to do a notice in just a moment, it will probably cause some discussion
[21:58] Desmond Shang: pls slow down the IM's to me directly for a bit
[21:58] Lxxx Sxxxxx IMs [Cxxxxxxx] instead.
[21:59] lxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx jumps up and down on the bed while everyone is distracted waiting for the announcement!!
[22:01] Gxxxxxx Hxx: Are Meeroos in fashion again?
[22:01] Desmond Shang: with red wine and truffle sauce.

Couldn't find a recipe with Meeroos, but this one can probably be converted.

[22:01] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: sion chickens
[22:01] Gxxxxxx Hxx: :-)
[22:01] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Now I'm hungry!
[22:01] Desmond Shang: checkign my spelling
[22:01] Axxxxxx Gaxxxxxx tosses [Pxxxxx] a lolly...because it's not her bed nor her sheets. :)
[22:02] lxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: CANDY!!! yaysss!!
[22:02] Axxxxxx Gaxxxxxx: If you're checkign it, you're in trouble, Sir.
[22:02] Mxxxxxxxx Kxxxxxx breaks out the mother sauce.
[22:03] Gxxxxxx Hxx: Last time I broke out the father sauce I got arrested.
[22:05] Desmond Shang: gah. did I send that? or did I just have the system eat it.
[22:05] Desmond Shang:
[22:05] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Mmmmm, delicious.
[22:05] Gxxxxxx Hxx: We ain't seen nuthin' yet!
[22:05] Mxxxxxxxx Kxxxxxx: It went well with the mother sauce.
[22:05] Dxxxxxxxx Axxx: nope
[22:05] Desmond Shang: sighs and tries to do it again. i'm relogging
[22:07] Desmond Shang: anything yet?
[22:07] mxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: not yet
[22:07] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Newp
[22:07] Rxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Wxxx: smh
[22:08] Gxxxxxx Hxx checks his stocking.
[22:08] Desmond Shang: okay. trying again. I had the group notice panel box crash on me.
[22:08] Gxxxxxx Hxx: COAL!

Is that...good, or bad?

[22:08] Axxxxxx Gaxxxxxx: I heard that there were massive problems earlier today--maybe they've not all been fixed?

No, they surely have not.

[22:09] Sxxx Fxxxxxxxx: couldn't log in for quite some time earlier while they fixed whatever was wrong
[22:09] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: replaced hardware, per April Linden post
[22:10] Sxxx Fxxxxxxxx: wow
[22:10] Sxxx Fxxxxxxxx: that was probably pricey

And then the notice I uploaded earlier:

[22:11] Desmond Shang: Group Notice Sent by: Desmond Shang
A quick note about the confederate flag issue.
This is how we got here. I thought it important to share what I can.

Des

So and thus.

[22:11] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Yay
[22:11] Desmond Shang: hm. looks like that went out.
[22:11] Sxxx Fxxxxxxxx: yes, got it, Des
[22:11] lxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I got it!
[22:11] Lxxx Sxxxxx nods noddingly.
[22:11] Sxxx Fxxxxxxxx is reading
[22:12] Desmond Shang: i'm going to try to get a few things done but mainly I figure I shoudl be around for what will certainly be... some kind of discussion.
[22:12] Sxxx Fxxxxxxxx: okies
[22:12] Desmond Shang: brb 2 minutes tho
[22:12] Desmond Shang: afk 2
[22:14] Desmond Shang: back.
[22:15] Desmond Shang: going to slooowly try to do some land stuff, but paying attention here.
[22:15] Dxxxxxxxx Axxx: I remember when a woman stopped in a windemere looking for land to home her Nazi role play group - when I asked her if she was going to build ovens she said - "well that is part of the role play but we are an educational group" I spoke to Des she was region banned - and I personally couldnt agree more -

I can't imagine anyone thinking, in all honesty, that Caledon is the perfect place for gas chambers. Dear gods.

[22:15] Emilly Orr: I will be polite, but at the end of the day, it's your estate, you make the rules, and anyone who doesn't want to abide by them is perfectly free to live elsewhere.
[22:16] Desmond Shang: honestly I hoped the whole thing would just go away, but, I got put in a corner... and yeah, icky. I'm not keen on dealing with SL drama at all, it's a necessary evil.
[22:16] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: hell, BERLIN does niot allow nazis
[22:17] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and they are set in the 30's
[22:17] Zxxxxxxx Wxxxxxx: Well 1929 but yeah
[22:17] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and before people say "the stars and bars ain;t the same" read what Hitler thought of the CSa
[22:18] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: AS IN "INSPIRED"
[22:18] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: he even made his generals read cowboy books because he thoughtn the Ibndians were just russians
[22:19] Zxxxxxxx Wxxxxxx: So a moment of confession. I have displayed the confederate flag in Caledon. I won a car on a game show and I got a replica of the General Lee from Dukes of Hazard and set it up in my yard. But this had to be like 8 years ago or so and the thing is probably lost in my inventory now. I never drove it in Caledon because of theme but I probably won't ever rez it again.
[22:21] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: hey, I can see the dukes of hazzard are tongue in cheek at best :)
[22:21] Desmond Shang: curious fact: my high school was 'savanna home of the rebels' and in the 1970's ALL of our school folders, teams, everything was covered in confederate stuff. as a kid, I just looked at it in confusion. it went away in the 1980's I think because someone must have complained.
[22:21] Zxxxxxxx Wxxxxxx: It was before my "awokening"
[22:21] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I just think that frankly, the god staffers here have enough to deal with than have people try to do the equivalent of pickett;s charge at gettysburg because it is about their "rights"
[22:22] Desmond Shang: it's probably all over my high school year books... in fact i'm sure it is. if I ever find em in the attic.
[22:22] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx smiles
[22:22] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and pardon the look of ass kissing, but I would like to commend you des
[22:22] Axxxxxx Gaxxxxxx: If you do, we get to see the high school version of Des. :-D
[22:22] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He'd be all 8-bit!
[22:22] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: You have enough to deal with than have to deal with poltics, and yes, this is poltics

Actually, it's "politics". Anyway.

[22:23] Desmond Shang: believe me this was the LAST thing I wanted to even think about.
[22:23] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and I say this as one whiose hometown will probably be the next town in the news because of a damned statue
[22:24] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Thank you forn stabnding firm

"For standing", and I'd agree. For all the controversy it caused, it's a wise policy.

[22:24]Zxxxxxxx Wxxxxxx: Recently someone was selling a patch that combined the Rebel Alliance Starbird (Star Wars) with the Confederate flag and a bunch of my Jedi friends descended with 1 star reviews and criticisms of incompatible worldviews of the Rebel Alliance with Confederates
[22:24] Lxxx Sxxxxx: My town had the same argument years ago, about Cortez!
[22:24] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: because yes, there are nice people who like that flag, for reasons I do nto even want top udnerstand...but those are the people that the scary creeps use as cover..

"Understand"...

[22:25] Desmond Shang: i get the feeling that there are RL 'fads'
[22:25] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I guess your Jedi friends ignore the prequels. Smart of them.
[22:25] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I am inn central Florida, I am sorry, my rl has fiormed opinions, if that makes me a witch, oh well

This may be a minority position, but I've always believed what makes you a witch is being a witch. Opinions and growing up in the south have nothing to do with it.

[22:25] Desmond Shang: like for instance, when the avatar movies came out. you know, james cameron. pretty soon all the avatar stuff was everywhere
[22:25] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: nods "this is a fad" because certain people are enocuragign this...

"Encouraging", and I wouldn't say that. I'd say a sufficient number of movers and shakers have finally heard those who have been bothered for decades, and decided to finally do something about it.

[22:25] Desmond Shang: it's not just movies that gets in the popular zeitgeist.
[22:25] Lxxx Sxxxxx: If your RL didn't form opinions, you would be a rock or a goldfish.
[22:26] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: This is not a fad; this is a moral panic. The country goes through them about once a decade like clockwork.
[22:27] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: it is part fad, but it is fanned by people who do have some bad intent...
[22:27] Mxxxxxxxx Kxxxxxx: Moral panic in what way?

That was my question, too, but I don't think it comes up again.

[22:27] Axxxxxx Gaxxxxxx: Honestly, I've been wondering what the "other hand" is doing while everyone's focusing on "this one over here"--that probably came off sounding weird. But it does seem like every time there's something that draws everyone's attention, there's an alternative reason for it.
[22:27] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I'm sorry I freaked out at the Desmond's initial announcement. I don't care one way or another to be honest. I was just depressed and sometimes depressed person logic tells you that since you suck, the rest of the world should realize how much you suck, and that if you have to show them, then that's okay, because, well, you suck.
[22:27] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Especially with the big gold T, everything is always a distraction for something else.
[22:28] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [Mxxxx] is I can attemopt to explain, in previous years, the reb flag may have been an annoyance, but thanks to the current mood in the us, there are people who use that symbol for violence

"Attempt".

[22:28] Desmond Shang: [Exxxxxxxx] I respect the principles you were standing up for. I'm sorry I didn't convey what I was dealing with better.
[22:29] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Well, I stood up for them in the worst way possible. I do think free speech is important, even in places that don't have to have it by law, but I'm sorry if I stressed you out over it any with my episode.
[22:30] Desmond Shang: it's totally ok. I love [Pxxxx] too, I had no idea she would react like this, but as you can see from the note this was bigger than who I was friends with.
[22:31] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and THAT is why you proved to be a good leader
[22:31] Lxxx Sxxxxx: This is bigger than all of us. Staying or leaving.
[22:32] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I am staying
[22:32] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: What [Dxx Axxxxx. Said. A group can hijack the meaning of a symbol.
[22:32] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: In psart because this place showed it gave a dam
[22:32] Axxxxxx Gaxxxxxx: I'm fine with the decision. Now, try to take away my pentacles and we might have a fight. ;-p
[22:33] Cxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxx: I thought this decision was the better of two options, even if it was like ripping off a bandaid.
[22:33] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: The German Nazi party did that to the Swastika in the 1930's and the white supremacist groups have done that to confederate flags now.
[22:33] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Some of us are staying in spite of the rule change. I'm really amazed it was an issue for the Governor.
[22:33] Cxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxx: Sudden and chaotic, but better than leaving it in the system to fester and cause issues further down the line.
[22:33] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Festering causes bad smells.
[22:34] Cxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxx: I stand by Desmond.
[22:34] Zxxxx Exxxxxxx: I do as well
[22:34] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: nods..."I am the first to wantb to kep rl and sl separate, but frankly, hate types are insidious. Even if some "nice people" use the symbols wioth no malice, the bigots use those folks as cover..to shoot over, and eventually shoot the ncie people too

"Want"..."keep"..."nice"....I need to stop, there's just too many.

[22:34] Lxxx Sxxxxx: I stand closer than all o' ya's!
[22:35] Desmond Shang: there is a LOT I don't share with you guys. it wouldn't be right for me to, as regardless of land, i don't have any special standing. i can't go around calling people names, I can only make policy.
[22:35] Lxxx Sxxxxx clings to Des like a barnacle.
[22:35] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: And that as all you are doing
[22:35] Gxxxxxx Hxx: ew.
[22:35] Gxxxxxx Hxx: ;-)
[22:35] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: makign a clear policy for ther benfit of caledon
[22:35] lxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: OK. gotta throw in my two cents of support.
[22:35] Lxxx Sxxxxx: I don't even consider it a rule change, it's a clarification.
[22:35] lxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: My mentor put it this way.
[22:35] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and frankly, if people leave because they love a symbol, then fine, we remain
[22:35] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: And the Caledon's motto's first to themes are civility and tolerance. Any symbol that has become in opposition to those themes just doesn't belong here.
[22:36] Desmond Shang: in fact, technically, even if I am dealing with a griefer and stay anything that makes them feel unwelcome as an SL customer, the AR sticks to me.
[22:36] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and [wxxxxxxxx] quote for the win'
[22:36] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: civility and TOLERANCE
[22:36] Axxxxxx Gaxxxxxx: There ya go, [Wxxx]. That said all that needed to be.
[22:36] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and that symbol is neither
[22:36] Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxxxx: I put up a Sex Pistols God Save the Queen poster as graffiti. Is that bad, or merely cheeky? ~_o
[22:37] Cxxxxxxx Wxxxxxxxx waves to [Zxxxx] :D
[22:37] Axxxxxx Gaxxxxxx: Shouldn't that be God Save the Vicereine?
[22:37] Zxxxx Exxxxxxx: (( waves back to [Cxxxx] :) ))
[22:37] lxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Only ONE flag will ever fly over Cymru. When THAT flag comes down, Caledon will already have crumbled to dust. ( Viderian Vollmar )
[22:37] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: nods to [Kxxxxx] "I get the joke, but trith be told, no one got enslaved or killed thanks to johnny rotten :)

"Truth".

[22:38] Mxxxxxxxx Kxxxxxx: Is that next to the blood fountain, ViceReine?
[22:38] Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxxxx: Yes, at least it's not Vicious.
[22:38] Txxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: lol

I see what you did there.

[22:38] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Two points though: if this current moral panic continues, eventually people will come after Steampunk for portraying a whitewashed fantasy version of the RL British Empire, which as much fun as it may be for RP, did some horrible things while it was busy conquering half the planet. I hope things subside before it gets to that point.
[22:38] mxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: laughs
[22:38] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Second: I forgot my second point.
[22:39] Mxxxxxxxx Kxxxxxx: That criticism already exists within steampunk commentary.
[22:39] Axxxxxx Gaxxxxxx: Yup
[22:39] Mxxxxxxxx Kxxxxxx: We talk about it, we deal with it.
[22:39] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: being raised in texas where the confederate is flown...i have no problem it being banned...i tend to stay out of stuff like this and would rather just enjoy myself in sl.....ok said my two cents...
[22:39] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Ok, about steampunk
[22:40] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: if they say that
[22:40] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I was raised in and live in Texas, too.
[22:40] Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxxxx: Anything I discover had jumped the shark. Steampunk's been dead since 2005. Long live steampunk.
[22:40] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: we say "well, there is steampunk and history
[22:40] Desmond Shang: indeed, and pretty much every empire has committed some pretty horrible sins. and still is. I'm a US citizen and have to live with my nation's actions in my name. not always good.
[22:40] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Six Flags over Texas took down five of the six flags it used to fly and replaced them all with the American flag only.

This is true. Before Charlottesville:



After Charlottesville:

[22:40] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: it's not like the csa flag is an rp accesory ..
[22:41] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: steamopunk is a hostory that never was, and we admit that<

"Steampunk. And "history". I guess at least your misspellings are consistent...

[22:41] Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxxxx also, has no blood fountain, has a Banksy, tho
[22:41] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: unlike certain people who appsarently do live in alternaten hsotry, that causes a lot of harm

"Apparently. "Alternate". And "history"...

[22:41] Desmond Shang: the whitewashing critique can be accurate at times, though. i've had to deal with it in the past.
[22:42] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: now our school district in rl is talking of changing the names of 2 schools...robert e lee and dick dowling....i think that's going a bit far considering they've been around for years and it never bothered anyone until now...

"Never bothered anyone" is frequent code for "it bothered people, but not any important white people, so we never cared".

[22:42] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: well, yes whitewashing, but steampunk has elves in it, clockwork, stuff we know never was.
[22:43] Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxxxx: Of unrelated importance: http://www.djfood.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/K2Plant-Hire.jpg
[22:43] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: There are likely more steampunk fans in this country than klan members and members of neo-nazi group. Probably by a factor of ten. It well could come up some day.
[22:43] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: whereas one trip to a musuem and you see all sorts of e3xhibits about what relaly was..even though my southern friends keep going "no, we really did niot do THHHHAT."

"Really". Which is odd, because you spelled it right later in the sentence!

[22:44] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: puts on my penguin suit and tap dances...grins
[22:44] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and steampunk is a genre, which btw, many authors hated the klan, shelrock holmes made them villains in "a study in scarlet" :)

"Sherlock". And was it the Klan in Study? I thik the book had another villain in mind.

[22:44] Mxxxxxxxx Kxxxxxx: [Cxxxxx], how do you know it didn't bother anyone before now?
[22:45] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: well no one ever brought it to anyone's attention until now.
[22:45] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Yes, but it took Superman to take the 2nd Klan down :)
[22:45] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: You know, maybe it did not bother anyone before now, maybe so, but now that we know better, no harm in progress..
[22:46] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I think in A Study in Scarlet, the Mormon's were the villains.
[22:46] Kxxxxxxx Ixxxxxxxx: oh and the person who has brought it up just happens to be an employee at one of the schools
[22:47] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: nope, twas the klan
[22:47] Mxxxxxxxx Kxxxxxx: Maybe the people who were bothered were told not to make waves? Because I don't think I know a single African-American who is just fine with all of the commemorations and valorizations of Confederate heroes.
[22:47] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: even though a movie made it the mormons
[22:47] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I've read the original.
[22:47] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Several times. I'm pretty sure I'm right.
[22:48] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Let me google it. My memory is fallible, though.
[22:48] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Orange_Pips
[22:48] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: now they made a basil ratbione movioe that was good, but took all the kk stuff out

"Basil Rathbone", and he made many movies that were good.

[22:48] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: aka ":the hosue iof fear"

I think you mean "The House of Fear"? Based on The Five Orange Pips, mentioned earlier.

[22:48] Desmond Shang: forgive me for operating slowly my IM"s are up agian
[22:49] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: laughs as [cxxxxxxx] has sen that :)
[22:49] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: dont let the hecklers get ye diown des
[22:49] Kxxxxxx Hxxxxxxxxx is talking trash at Desmond in IM
[22:49] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Okay. I just brought up Study in Scarlet on Project Gutenberg and ran a full-text search for "klan" and nothing came up.
[22:49] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: those who stand firm stand last after the rest have fallen or crawled :)
[22:49] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/244/244-0.txt
[22:50] Axxxxxx Gxxxxxx snerks. Not to make light of any of this but this is one of the things to love about Caledon. In the middle of current controversial event drama and wind up with a discussion about the points of a Doyle story. :-D
[22:50] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Hell yes
[22:50] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and ok, i stand corrected "the five orange pips" was the one where the bad gusy were the KKK
[22:51] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: which still provs the point that the Kluxers were not stemapunk good guys
[22:52] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: No one said they were. However, the 1st incarnation of the Klan did occur during Victorian times, not that anyone is RPing it.
[22:52] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: not that I would want to
[22:53] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: as staisfyiugn as dealign with them would be, as in lab rats

"Satisfying", and "dealing". But possible.

[22:53] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Hey, A Study in Scarlet is important!
[22:54] Lxxx Sxxxxx: I think the most important aspect of Steampunk is what the past SHOULD HAVE BEEN.
[22:54] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: yes
[22:54] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: shopudl have been
[22:55] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and also, we admit it is what shoulkd have been

"Should", yes. And I agree. Steampunk is about what should have been. We are people, we have history's reflection, so the real world will creep in, but steampunk in its best form is about acceptance, about the history we would want to relive. Not the part of it that did occur.

[22:55] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: as opposed to people that want to bring back a past that never, ever was.
[22:55] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: that thnakfully, never was.

"Thankfully". And we have one more to go before this saga draws to a close.

And this just came out from Desmond Shang:

Hi all,

There was, unsurprisingly, a big fuss over the upcoming covenant change regarding confederate flags.


Most importantly: if someone disagrees with me, or the covenant, or whatever, please be classy and respectful toward them.

This whole thing was completely predicated on recent, multiple SL related problems, not RL or something I just dreamed up. It's not new either. There was confederate flag related griefing, and complaints after the Dylan Roof shootings a couple years ago. Related? You guys tell me. I may be wrong that the recent issues are related to recent RL protests in Virginia. It seems obvious but I can't prove it. If anyone cares to step forward and talk about specific incidents, they sure can. My guess is that at least one incident is probably a hot topic already. But I'm not going to call anyone out. I'll take the heat. Even though I've done my best to maintain free speech (hey, remember rights in the covenant was my idea) there's a difference between letting people speak their minds, and turning a blind eye to neo nazi's and the klan use Caledon's free speech covenant as 'cover'. Nobody should be surprised that griefers are in Second Life, or that the confederate flag is a fantastic griefing tool.

Let me be perfectly clear, I'm not stupid, I know what censorship is. I'm asking people to remove flags, let's call that what it is: censorship. There have to be a damn good reasons for that. Here are my reasons.

a) I refuse to provide cover to 'confederate roleplayers' or 'klan roleplayers' or their real counterparts, or trolls, inciting hate.

b) I'm *not* going to try to decide intent, nor have some inquisition figure it out. Just imagine if you had to decide who gets to fly a confederate flag. Daisy Duke? The Grand Wizard? Or Tara, who wants to role play a working plantation? I'm flat out not dealing with it.

Am I biased? Probably. Nazi flags are legal under a lot of circumstances in the united states; I've never tolerated them in Caledon at all. Nobody had a problem with those banned. Yes, I'm jewish and yes I took a very european approach to neo nazi symbols of hate. Even so, I wasn't quite sure what to do with the confederate flag. I'm not any kind of history expert. My thought was: don't all flags have some blood on them? What's really connected to a symbol? I sought advice. This was the clearest response I got. Those old, devastatingly sincere words from the VP of the confederacy itself, clinched my decision. If anyone still absolutely *has* to fly the confederate flag on their parcel, there are a lot of other places to do it than Caledon. I'll give a few weeks for people to figure out where to go if this issue is a showstopper for them, but I'm done with the confederate flag issue, and yes it will be enforced. Blame me.

I did not open this decision to community discussion, even if I did have a perfect record of the last 10 years of relevant issues that came up. That's what would be needed to evaluate this, though I know for a fact a lot of you saw with your own eyes. We had plenty of other problems; I've dealt with: Nazi flags (banned), Nazi role play (banned), child sexuality (banned even before the lindens banned it), various churches (all allowed, even the scientology one, yes we had that in Caledon Moors once), gambling (banned before the lindens did it), goreans (allowed), and probably the second most controversial to the confederate flag: the 'rainbow' flag (allowed). Yes, the rainbow flag was actually, truly controversial back in 2006 with some residents wishing it was gone. Times do change. In short, it really sucks to deal with an estate.

Finally, some have asked: what about ISIS flags and such? Or Russian flags or Hillary or Trump or UKIP signs. I haven't yet had anyone try to recreate a gulag here, or an ISIS terrorist cell, but if anyone seriously tries that, then I'll deal with it as it comes up. I would *like* to believe we are all mature enough to handle political candidate signs, I see that more of a theme issue, just keep your election signs inside a house window if you *have* to have one please.

Des

And that should be that, but I'll watch for more signs of intrusive debate. Truly, I never expected this silly issue to be the thing that divided Caledonians more than any other. I'm just baffled.

And this was sent yesterday by Autopilotpatty Poppy:

August 20, 2017

Dear Friends and Family,

I have been a member of the Caledon community since December of 2005. In all of my time here I have enjoyed the acceptance and diversity this community has afforded all of us. I have been a loyal and decent resident. I've been one of the most sincere and loyal ambassadors of Caledon and can proudly say that I've influenced a great number of wonderful people who now call this community their home.

One of the most important parts of this community has been its acceptance of diversity among it's citizens. We have never been politically charged and, in fact, I have never allowed political discussions on my parcels in Caledon.

We have enjoyed and prided ourselves of being a diverse community for religion, sexual orientation, furries, rabbits, werewolves, dragons, mermaids, steampunk cowboys, burlesque dancers, fae and skins of many colors along with any number of other fantasies by it's citizens.

Unfortunately my time and involvement in this community is now coming to a close. My leaving is due to the sudden change of Caledon's Covenant on the 17th of August involving the removing of all Confederate Flags, a decision that was made based on a RL occurrence. No one disputes the fact that this Rl event was a RL tragedy, but this event has led to a decision to simply force personal politics on to residents in SL. This decision was either unilaterally made or at best, made by a select few Caledonians with no input from the entire community. RL politics should NOT affect us in Caledon and certainly should not affect us based on one person's real life political views. As a community we should have a say with major decisions. We have not been afforded that opportunity.

This isn't about the flag, it's about dividing the community. It's already started!

It is understood that there is no requirement by the Estate Owner to obtain community input. However, decisions of this nature greatly affect everyone who lives in Caledon and pays tier.

Mine and Blake's land in Caledon II is now empty and available. There are 10 days or so left on the tier meter and those tier dollars will be moved to the new parcel renter.

All of our events on the Caledon and AC Calendars have been removed. If you want to stay informed of our future events just stay in or join the Gibraltar Village group.

This covenant change is just unacceptable for many reasons!

Patty Poppy
Knight of Caledon

This makes me weep!

This just makes me confused. Why is this one racist symbol the hill that so many want to die on?

(Continued from part three.)

And we continue after the posting of Miss [Pxxxxx]'s notice:

[00:09] Nxxxx Rxxx: Well if I should ever be in a position to own my own sim, I don't think I'd want to rent parcels. I could do without the headache of tenants.
[00:09] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Oh man....she went there....
[00:09] Zxxxxxxx Wxxxxxx Funny I just gave a lecture on Non-Attachment on Friday. It was very well received
[00:09] Nxxxx Rxxx: I suspect RL landlords find rent issues a big problem too.
[00:10] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: 30,000 prims and me
[00:10] Lxxx Sxxxxx: That could be a movie.
[00:11] Emilly Orr: And no one said anything about lost regions but you.
[00:11] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: at no point, ms [Pxxxxx], did I say YOU were responsible for lost regions

None of us did. It's just Miss [Pxxxxx]'s inference that we had.

[00:11] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: I beg of you Miss [Exxxxxxxx], don't do this, it will not end well or happily.
[00:12] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You're not even flying the battle flag, so most people probably won't recognize it.
[00:12] Nxxxx Rxxx: It's a bit late now, [Cx].
[00:12] Emilly Orr: What I said was, the only absolute, firm, CONfirmed reason Des evicts people is nonpayment of rent. There have likely been others, but that is the only reason I can state, from personal proof (not my being evicted, but having seen the aftermath and spoken with Des) of my own.
[00:12] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Not my problem if people don't know what the flag of the Confederacy looked like.

Actually, historically, it looked like a lot of things.

The one best-known by most, especially in the south, was originally the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia and was a square insignia. To make it more 'traditional' the design was stretched to fit a rectangular field:



The one that Miss [Pxxxxx] seemed intent on flying is colloquially known as the "Stars and Bars" and was designed originally by Nicola Marschall in 1861. Marschall based it on the Austrian flag and it was originally flown over the then-capitol of the Confederacy, Montgovery, Alabama:



But there are others.

[00:13] Lxxx Sxxxxx: No, but you want to make it Des' problem.
[00:13] Emilly Orr: The inference I was hoping you would gather from that is that Des does not spontaneously ban people. He bends over backwards to *avoid* banning people.
[00:13] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You want to cause suffering.
[00:13] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And you are going to.
[00:13] Emilly Orr: And drama.
[00:13] Emilly Orr: And I can't see a single reason why.
[00:13] Zxxxxxxx Wxxxxxx: You have picked a hell of a hill to die on, I will give you that
[00:13] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I don't know why.
[00:13] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: The right to create sorrow for oneself, is among the freedom of choice that each individual has. Sometimes a person feels they have to walk that road. Life is a process of choices.

It is, and it always will be, but not for the first time I started wondering if all we're managing to do is stand around a hole telling Miss [Pxxxxx] there's a hole, while she chucks down many sharp things into the hole and prepares to jump in.

[00:14] Emilly Orr: Then...mayhap...brew a strong pot of tea, and lay down until this passes?
[00:14] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and since it is not the Battle Flag, with all it's baggage, you might not get banned for it.... but I don't make the rules
[00:14] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: This all made sense when I started but now I'm just depressed.
[00:14] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: take down the flag and go to bed
[00:14] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I would not fly the battle flag. That would be unkind to black people.
[00:15] Emilly Orr: .....

My brain. "Unkind to black people". You know, as opposed to unkind to the Chinese, or Hispanics, or natives. I mean, hey, be a proud Southerner and fly a racist symbol of the South's recession from the United States, a battle y'all *LOST*, but by all means, don't fly a version of that racist symbol that might offend the blacks. Can't have that, you're a civilized racist. Sheesh.

[00:15] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And you know full well when Des made the new rule.
[00:15] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: please, don't fly that one either....just head to bed, rest....
[00:15] Lxxx Sxxxxx: That he was commenting on the BATTLE FLAG THAT EVERYONE THINKS OF.
[00:15] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: ok... just an uneducated Brit here
[00:16] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: either flag not...a...good...thing.
[00:16] Lxxx Sxxxxx: The "battle flag" that most people think of as the "Confederate flag" is actually a regimental flag. Not the governmental one.
[00:16] Emilly Orr: I think there are many who will not care.
[00:16] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: This is the Confederate flag:



[00:16] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: some of us know both.
[00:17] Emilly Orr: That you are defying Des' edict, deliberately, AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY, is just baffling.
[00:17] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx): and I consider them equivalent.

So does Des.

[00:17] Caissa McCarey (lorelai.mccarey): some people just have a knee-jerk reaction of 'you're not the boss of me"?
[00:17] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Yes, and many of them are three years old.
[00:18] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx: well, that too
[00:18] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: This is the flag of one regiment (stretched out) and later adopted by a bunch of guys in the 2nd KKK: It made sense when I started.
[00:18] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Confederate_Rebel_Flag.svg
[00:18] Emilly Orr: So...why do you wish to support the KKK?
[00:18] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: No.
[00:18] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: [Exxxxxxxx], what did I just say, I consider all flags of the confederacy to be equivalent.
[00:19] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Well, that magical thinking.
[00:19] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Your thinking is less magical, how?
[00:19] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: i agree with whoever it it that recently said "we should have let the south seceed when we had the chance" good grief!
[00:19] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: That does seem to be the theme tonight.
[00:19] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: now sure, there are people who only know the stars and bars...but I know the others as well....and personally, I don't want to see any of them.
[00:19] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Did you know that the US Flag stood for slavery for 70 years?

I think that's somewhat specious to state--because by that reasoning, the US flag has stood for war, medical experimentation on prisoners, medical experimentation on the unwilling black people, secrecy and lies, bigotry and homophobia for far longer.

[00:19] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx is going to stop being in this conversation (but keep watching)... people are getting less calm now
[00:19] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: So let's ban the US flag
[00:19] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: It's a symbol of hate.
[00:19] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: You did not go there.

Yes, yes she did. And apparently willingly to boot--because if she can't argue rationally by merit, she can change the subject and blame everyone else for her personal downfalls. How very Trumpian of her.

[00:20] Lxxx Sxxxxx: The US flag has also changed since then.
[00:20] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Irrelevant to Des's decision.
[00:20] Emilly Orr: I refuse to entertain arguments hinging on whataboutism. They're spurious and invalidate the main point.
[00:21] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Your "my argument made sense when I started it" isn't making any more sense now.
[00:21] Emilly Orr: It's really not.
[00:22] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And it never did.
[00:22] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: yes it did

When? When did it make sense?

[00:22] Lxxx Sxxxxx: It was a knee-jerk reaction to liberties you thought you had being brought to light that you don't.
[00:22] Emilly Orr: Especially when all you have to do is just take it down and stop worrying.
[00:23] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: look, you take the flag down and forget everything, then we can all be happy friends, you can be the cute drowgirl of stormhold and all is good.

I admit, at this point I started to feel we were browbeating her, with lines line these. But she wasn't done yet.

[00:24] Emilly Orr: You still have freedom of expression, you still have freedom of speech as long as you don't spout hate speech, racism, or sexism.
[00:24] Emilly Orr: All fine.
[00:24] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Or you can keep arguing and we'll just shake our heads wondering why that had to happen.
[00:24] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNkjDuSVXiE&t=188s
[00:24] Emilly Orr: And eventually wander off, tired of the fight that doesn't have to be one, and you'll be arguing with yourself.
[00:25] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Emily, basically a fallacy of Tu quoque.
[00:26] Emilly Orr: Oh, I hadn't heard that phrase before. Yes, exactly.
[00:27] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: So I'm a hypocrite, now too?

Who, in any of this, ever said you were a hypocrite??

[00:27] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: You all hate me.
[00:27] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I will show you hypocrite.
[00:27] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Who hates you?
[00:27] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: That's likely a red herring.
[00:27] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: no, we're more sad than anything.
[00:28] Emilly Orr: No one hates you.
[00:28] Lxxx Sxxxxx: We wouldn't be arguing to KEEP YOU AROUND if we hated you.
[00:28] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: There's no reason to hate you.
[00:28] Lxxx Sxxxxx: If we hated you, we'd be sending Des emails to come back inworld and get rid of you.
[00:28] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Or [Wxxxx].
[00:28] Emilly Orr: We wouldn't be arguing, period. I generally don't argue with people I don't believe are worth arguing with.
[00:28] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He's named appropriately.
[00:28] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: Bunneh of Wrath.
[00:28] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx can no longer see the train tracks behind us - sooo far off the tracks at this point

Yep.



We're about here, I think. Maybe a little farther from the tracks, even.

[00:29] Emilly Orr: Pretty much. We derailed some time ago.
[00:29] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I can't do anything right.
[00:29] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I tried to return all my objects in Caledon and and only half of them went.
[00:29] Emilly Orr: You're fighting a battle you cannot win, that is true. But obviously, you can do things right.
[00:30] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: But the flag is gone now.
[00:30] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: So everyone can be happy
[00:30] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: I suspect you actually do many things right, every day.
[00:30] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Happy! Happy! Happy! Happy!

Is it life in Stormhold that does this to people, or is it just her?

[00:30] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: whoohhh!
[00:30] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Happy to keep you within the citizenry, yes.
[00:31] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Happy not to see you tying yourself to the train tracks? Yes again.
[00:31] Emilly Orr: So...wait, let me make sure I have this right: we're arguing to keep you here, and not in trouble with the Guvnah, and now you're mad at us because you decided to challenge an estate-wide ban?
[00:32] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: LOL
[00:32] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Oh. I guess I did return everything. It was just an illusion that stuff was still there.
[00:33] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: See? I'm not a hypocrite!
[00:33] Emilly Orr: No one said you were.
[00:35] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx: no, I believe he just pointed out a specific logical fallacy being used
[00:35] Emilly Orr: No, he didn't. He was telling me that whataboutism is a poor renaming of tu quoque, a phrase I had never heard. And I told him he was right.
[00:35] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Nope. I said you used a Tu quoque fallacy in an argument. I said nothing about what you ARE.
[00:35] Emilly Orr: You have to listen to all the words.
[00:35] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx: ah, missed that part

So did Miss [Pxxxxx].

[00:37] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I don't know why I returned my house. I loved my house.
[00:37] Emilly Orr: I don't know, either. I think a lot of what you've done tonight falls into 'reaction', not 'considered action'.
[00:38] Lxxx Sxxxxx: I'm pretty sure you're not the only one confused by this.
[00:38] Fxxxxxxx Oxxxxx: I've done that before.
[00:38] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: if you love it, put it back up and stay with us.
[00:38] Emilly Orr: I have, too.
[00:38] Lxxxxxxx Pxxxxxx: Not your house ... *sigh*
[00:38] Emilly Orr: I've also returned many houses. And skyboxes. There's nothing quite like falling into the neighbor's yard from a great height.
[00:39] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: screaming all the way down is tradition.
[00:39] Emilly Orr: I am a fan of tradition.
[00:39] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I hope you were not naked when you fell there.
[00:39] Emilly Orr: Only once.
[00:39] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I am sorry.
[00:39] Fxxxxxxx Oxxxxx: Returned all the underwater decorations, streets and streetlamps a few months back
[00:39] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx: this is why I try not to edit mine anymore. It always ends with me having to place a new one and never quite getting it in the same spot
[00:39] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: ok this has extended too far into the realm of "makes no sense at all" FTSm we out
[00:40] Emilly Orr: It helped that I was friends with the neighbor, at least.

And then...a beacon of faint hope in the distance:

[00:40] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: You can drag the items out of Lost and Found, right click them and select Restore to Last Position if you are using Firestorm and if the items are Copy
[00:40] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: This all made sense at first. I think it may have been depressed person logic.
[00:40] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: thank you, Ms [Pxxxxx], that must have taken some effrt to say
[00:40] Lxxx Sxxxxx: It may have been.
[00:40] Fxxxxxxx Oxxxxx: [Gxxx], where were you with that advice a few months back?
[00:40] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx grins
[00:40] Emilly Orr: Ah, depression. Yes, the voices never tell you true things.

They never do.

[00:41] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: I was just about to say that myself, [Fxxxxxxx]
[00:42] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: I once returned every infrastructure prim on public land in St John Parish. I am an expert at restoration now!

Ouch. That must have taken some time to replace even with this trick.

[00:42] Fxxxxxxx Oxxxxx: Three hours of work, POOF, in the lost and found folder. Had to start all over. Now I find out about Restore To Last.
[00:42] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Restore doesn't always work, but when it does, it is happier times.
[00:42] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Right - the items need to be Copy
[00:43] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: AND you need to make sure that rezzing is enabled on the parcel at 0,0,0 on the sim!
[00:43] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: If you disable rezzing there, Restore to Last Position will not work
[00:43] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I'm looking in my lost and found folder
[00:43] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Anywhere in the entire sim
[00:44] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: If it's empty Miss [Pxxxxx] you might need to relog
[00:44] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Sometimes items don't appear there right away. But a relog fixes it.
[00:44] Fxxxxxxx Oxxxxx: Right, time to head out. Just realized the time.
[00:45] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I will do that.
[00:45] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Thank you
[00:47] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Time is an illusion.
[00:47] Lxxx Sxxxxx: 1:47 AM, doubly so.
[00:48] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: Indeed.
[00:52] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: In the future I will try to keep my episodes to my self.
[00:53] Lxxx Sxxxxx: I think your heart was in the right place.
[00:54] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I'm just going to put my house back. I'm sorry.
[00:56] Lxxx Sxxxxx: I think those of us in sleepy-time zones all need to get to that.
[00:57] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Get some rest.

(Continued in part five.)

(Continued from part two.)

I know each part is long, but keep in mind, this was a very long conversation.

[23:39] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I'm just making the point that people who spend their SL time dressing up like lords and ladies of the largest colonial empire the world has ever seen, should not really be pointing fingers.

Well, yes and no. In the largest historical sense, yes--we are choosing to play England (and the Colonies, and some accessory islands, and some purely fantasy lands) at the height of burgeoning Empire, when many wrongs were done. To race, to culture, to gender; absolutely.

But we are making different choices. By and large, at least as a group, we are choosing not to discriminate in the ways that the original Victorians did. Natives are people to us, skin color doesn't matter, furs are accepted--all things that, by its very nature both as a battle flag and as a cultural symbol, any Confederate flag flies in the face against.

[23:39] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And you flying the flag as soon as it was deemed "wrong" means you are doing wrong, on purpose.
[23:41] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: and anyway people like to [somehow] forget that freedom of speech only applies to public and government places - it does not and never has applied to private spaces, corporations can indeed make their own rules about what they will and will not tolerate
[23:41] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You don't like the change, then leave. That is what will happen, whether you do it first, or you force kind and generous people to go out of their way to enforce a rule they didn't want to make.
[23:42] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Yes. And how does that work out in these current days of quasi-monopoly internet companies like Google and Amazon?
[23:42] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Des' estate. Des' rules. It really is that simple.
[23:42] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: My guess the people(s) with their conf flags out now will quietly remove them.
[23:42] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Those are wrong symbols, because you still have other choices.
[23:43] Lxxx Sxxxxx: If you live somewhere that has Comcast, you're almost certainly stuck with Comcast.
[23:43] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: It's not and never was a democracy.
[23:43] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And THEY have rules about what they can do.
[23:43] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I am fully on board with free speak, I am not happy about 'no platforming' people you disagree with (it only drives them into the shadows where they fester).... but taking a stand to show a symbol that has all the baggage attached is not acceptable

It's the eternal ethical debate, I fall victim to it easily as well. For example, Eminem. Is it better to have his work openly sold, to let him play where he wants, spreading bigotry and homophobia? Or is it the better choice to ban him from concerts in cities where homophobia has been denied, where bigotry has no place?

My answer generally has been--let him say what he wants. Then we see him for what he is, we hear what he says, we can contrast that with our own values.

But by the same extension, Eminem is (mostly) restricting himself to words. Words have power, but he's not standing in front of the podium screaming about killing blacks, killing mixed-race children, raping white women and forcing them to have white children for the "master race". Those people, I still feel, are dangerous. Not because of their words, which can be persuasive enough, but because of their actions.

So where is the line for free speech drawn? I still don't know.

[23:44] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You don't have to use Google, you can use Bing, or Duck Duck Go, or Ask Jeeves or whatever the heck else you want.
[23:44] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Although I know Des listens to Caledon residents. And it sounds like this has been an ongoing source of resident complaints for years.
[23:44] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You don't have to buy anything on Amazon. You can buy it somewhere else.
[23:45] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: As Des puts it: "Remember, I am no Solomon. I promise a good faith effort to be fair, but I am human and have my own values, which may be as noble or as flawed as your own. I am no counselor and have no special insights." But he does make the rules.
[23:45] Lxxx Sxxxxx: If you don't like the new rule, then go somewhere that doesn't have the rule.
[23:45] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Your "making a stand" is just "making a scene".

And a needlessly dramatic one as well.

[23:45] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: One hates to see a long time resident make bad choices, but ultimately making such a choice and the consequences that come with it are their personal choice. Enough from me.
[23:46] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: exactly - CHOICE is a marveouls thing
[23:46] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And you're making someone that a lot of us care about, very unhappy.
[23:46] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Mainland is a great deal these days! Costs less and has more prims. And I am not being sarcastic when I say that!
[23:47] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: (I often use that phrase with people at Oxbridge before kicking someone out: We have rules, you have choices. Choices have consequences.)
[23:47] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: actually, I really, really cheered by this conversation on one level... there is a real consensus in Caledon that the ConFed flag is not acceptable... and everyone is arguing calmly
[23:48] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: it really si that simple, [Wxxx]
[23:49] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I don't think I've ever seen a confederate battle flag in Caledon
[23:49] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: So I'm amazed it is such a problem.
[23:49] Lxxx Sxxxxx: If I have, I didn't pay attention to it.
[23:49] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and now you never will, not for long
[23:49] Lxxx Sxxxxx: But some people do.
[23:49] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: I like it because it underlines each individual's responsibility when visiting privately owned land.
[23:49] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: I'll say again, Land Barons and EM's deal with this sort of thing BEHIND the scenes and often before anyone notices.
[23:50] Lxxx Sxxxxx: The good ones, anyway.
[23:50] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: She's correct. :-) (she = [Cx])
[23:50] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And Des is a good one.
[23:50] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Yes. He's the best Estate Owner in Second Life.

Yet you're treating him with such disrespect.

[23:50] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: so just because you haven't seen one, doesn't mean there hasn't been discussion about the issue before, or incidents before.
[23:51] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Some of the complains may have been from griefing. Or visitors.
[23:51] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: and after what has happened i think it's very timely
[23:51] Lxxx Sxxxxx: *complaints
[23:53] Lxxx Sxxxxx: It's still very odd that you'd rather cause problems specifically over something designed to stop problems.
[23:54] Emilly Orr: It is, isn't it?
[23:54] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: *sighs* i have come to the conclusion that some people want to cause problems kist for the sake of causing problems, in both lives. . . . . . :(
[23:54] Emilly Orr: And here I thought Miss Portal was rather level-headed.
[23:54] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Well it's SL, we're all nuts.
[23:55] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: That must be it. I'm sure you all can name a host of problems I've caused in the past and drama I've been involved in.
[23:55] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: He's asking for help, really. He deserves it.
[23:55] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: *snicker*
[23:55] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: Bans the Southern Pecan
[23:55] Lxxx Sxxxxx rage quits
[23:56] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: So true [Lxxx]....so true!
[23:56] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You haven't caused a host of problems. Why start now?
[23:56] Mxxx Mxxxxxxxam: my mom made these pumpkin pecan pies with sherry, omg, the pie shell had chopped pecans with butter

I had to dig up a recipe after that mention, and couldn't find one that hit the notes of pecans in the shell of a butter crust with sherry. But I found a Pecan Brownie Pie, a Bourbon/Raisin Pecan Pie, and a Kentucky Bourbon Pecan Pie, all of which sound amazing.

[23:57] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: exactly.... playing "I dare you to get rid of me" with Land Barons and EM's does not work well.
[23:57] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx's mind is suddenly focused on the idea of that pie crust
[23:57] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Can you think of a single problem I've caused here in eight and a have years of residence before tonight?
[23:57] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And why do you want to sully that record?
[23:58] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: Exactly, keep the flawless record of no issues, it's easy.
[23:58] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You are causing problems NOW. Doesn't matter how many problems you didn't cause yesterday.
[23:58] Fxxxxxxx Oxxxxx: Just logged in and now confused......are we banning someone or eating pumpkin pecan pies?
[23:58] Emilly Orr: Well, tonight, you're just throwing away everything for a single prim. Doesn't make sense.
[23:58] Lxxx Sxxxxx: "I didn't shoot anyone for twenty years. Why is shooting someone bad now?"

Pretty damn much. And she doesn't even see it.

[23:58] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I was responding to: [23:54] Artemiss Luminos: *sighs* i have come to the conclusion that some people want to cause problems kist for the sake of causing problems, in both lives. . . . . . :(
[23:58] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx is all about the pie at this point
[23:58] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: Damned straight [Fxxx], we are a cake based community
[23:59] Fxxxxxxx Oxxxxx: Steelhead....well.....cake, pie, cookies......
[23:59] Emilly Orr: Now, I admit, I had a tower in Winterfell at one point, that had meaning for me. I was asked to take it down. *I did*. That decision didn't sit well, though, and after a few more months, *I left*. Note, my choice to cooperate, my choice to leave. I was never *asked* to.
[23:59] Emilly Orr: Now you are being asked to cooperate with an edict from a land owner. Do it.
[23:59] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Well, no, [Exxxxxxxx] isn't causing problems now, at least not as the discussion exists. But continuing to display the flag will become a problem.
[00:00] Lxxx Sxxxxx: She is asking to cause the problem. She wants Des to log in and kick her out.
[00:00] Emilly Orr: Which is kind of high up in the stupidsphere, and is drama that can be easily avoided.
[00:01] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: it sounds mean but it isn't neant to be - if you don;t like something you can always leave, it's CHOICE
[00:01] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Or you can stay awake for the next 12 hours waiting for someone to log in and kick you out for reasons.

"For reasons", right. Like that's going to happen.

[00:02] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: I am reminded of a song: "I fought the Law and the Law won"

Exactly. Exactly what's going to happen with this. Keep fighting, you won't win. Fight harder, you still won't win.

[00:02] Emilly Orr: And he won't do it. Do you know when he'll do something? When you don't pay your rent for a few weeks.
[00:02] Nxxxx Rxxx: It is also a choice to protest.
[00:02] Emilly Orr: And even with that, he'll only reclaim the land, or sell it on, he won't ban you from Caledon.
[00:02] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: It will happen as she chooses in the end. And I assume Des will simply do it, perhaps offering a final chance to make a choice, but no particular drama.
[00:02] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Why would I not pay my rent for a few weeks?
[00:03] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: If I'm even a day late, I always pay back rent.
[00:03] Emilly Orr: People do. People have.
[00:03] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: By the way... pay your tier on time, or the Catgirls and fashionistas will come for you....and they will not be happy. You don't want unhappy catgirls and fashionistas.
[00:04] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: *giggles*
[00:04] Nxxxx Rxxx: At this point I think the ball is (sadly) in Des's park. I hate for him to have to deal with more stuff, but all the talk now isn't going to change anyone's mind as to what is best to do.
[00:05] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Yes, that is what saddens me. Des has to take MORE crap about something he JUST SAID he was tired of taking crap over.
[00:05] Nxxxx Rxxx: As for the tier issue, if everyone paid on time Des would be FAR happier with his job as landlord.
[00:05] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: as would other Land Barons of my Acquaintance as well.
[00:06] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: late/none tier payment is why we have lost so many regions
[00:06] Lxxx Sxxxxx: But he dropped the regions to keep the estate afloat.
[00:07] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: That and the general loss of SL residents.
[00:07] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: and I am still saddened over Glengarry going away and thusly losing my Glengarry Parcel, which I loved.
[00:07] Nxxxx Rxxx: Two neighbors of mine recently left Caledon. One just vanished with months of unpaid tier, all their stuff still rezzed on the parcel. The other cleaned off his parcel, paid AHEAD one month, and left Des a note. Guess which one made Des happy?
[00:07] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: yes
[00:07] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: sure it was basically a "park" but I loved that little thing.
[00:07] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I've been late a day or two on occasion, and always paid back rent for the days I was late. So if I was two days late (that's the latest), I've always paid the next weeks rent, plus 200L$ a day for each day I was late, and now i'm the problem with lost regions?

Of course not. You're reading things incorrectly, and assuming everyone's attacking you with pitchforks and knives, and we're not even massing outside your dwelling.

[00:08] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: no no, we're talking in General Miss [Exxxxxxxx].
[00:08] Lxxx Sxxxxx: No, you're the problem with a flag you didn't rez.
[00:08] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Until someone told you not to.
[00:08] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Now you're being petulant about it.

Yes, well put.

[00:08] Nxxxx Rxxx: We were trying to change the conversation to another issue
[00:08] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: but imagine, that the flag is just one more burden on an overburdened land baron.
[00:08] Nxxxx Rxxx: One unrelated to you.
[00:08] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: *facepalms*
[00:08] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Ultimately, one in a position to enforce rules has to be able to do it without hate; basically with non-attachment. Simply do what needs to be done.

[00:09] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Group Notice Sent by: [Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx]
Waiting to be Banned

After the title, all the notice contained was was a picture:

[00:09] Emilly Orr: You have lost your mind.

(Continued in part four.)