I know each part is long, but keep in mind, this was a very long conversation.
[23:39] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I'm just making the point that people who spend their SL time dressing up like lords and ladies of the largest colonial empire the world has ever seen, should not really be pointing fingers.Well, yes and no. In the largest historical sense, yes--we are choosing to play England (and the Colonies, and some accessory islands, and some purely fantasy lands) at the height of burgeoning Empire, when many wrongs were done. To race, to culture, to gender; absolutely.
But we are making different choices. By and large, at least as a group, we are choosing not to discriminate in the ways that the original Victorians did. Natives are people to us, skin color doesn't matter, furs are accepted--all things that, by its very nature both as a battle flag and as a cultural symbol, any Confederate flag flies in the face against.
[23:39] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And you flying the flag as soon as it was deemed "wrong" means you are doing wrong, on purpose.It's the eternal ethical debate, I fall victim to it easily as well. For example, Eminem. Is it better to have his work openly sold, to let him play where he wants, spreading bigotry and homophobia? Or is it the better choice to ban him from concerts in cities where homophobia has been denied, where bigotry has no place?
[23:41] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: and anyway people like to [somehow] forget that freedom of speech only applies to public and government places - it does not and never has applied to private spaces, corporations can indeed make their own rules about what they will and will not tolerate
[23:41] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You don't like the change, then leave. That is what will happen, whether you do it first, or you force kind and generous people to go out of their way to enforce a rule they didn't want to make.
[23:42] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Yes. And how does that work out in these current days of quasi-monopoly internet companies like Google and Amazon?
[23:42] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Des' estate. Des' rules. It really is that simple.
[23:42] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: My guess the people(s) with their conf flags out now will quietly remove them.
[23:42] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Those are wrong symbols, because you still have other choices.
[23:43] Lxxx Sxxxxx: If you live somewhere that has Comcast, you're almost certainly stuck with Comcast.
[23:43] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: It's not and never was a democracy.
[23:43] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And THEY have rules about what they can do.
[23:43] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I am fully on board with free speak, I am not happy about 'no platforming' people you disagree with (it only drives them into the shadows where they fester).... but taking a stand to show a symbol that has all the baggage attached is not acceptable
My answer generally has been--let him say what he wants. Then we see him for what he is, we hear what he says, we can contrast that with our own values.
But by the same extension, Eminem is (mostly) restricting himself to words. Words have power, but he's not standing in front of the podium screaming about killing blacks, killing mixed-race children, raping white women and forcing them to have white children for the "master race". Those people, I still feel, are dangerous. Not because of their words, which can be persuasive enough, but because of their actions.
So where is the line for free speech drawn? I still don't know.
[23:44] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You don't have to use Google, you can use Bing, or Duck Duck Go, or Ask Jeeves or whatever the heck else you want.And a needlessly dramatic one as well.
[23:44] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Although I know Des listens to Caledon residents. And it sounds like this has been an ongoing source of resident complaints for years.
[23:44] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You don't have to buy anything on Amazon. You can buy it somewhere else.
[23:45] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: As Des puts it: "Remember, I am no Solomon. I promise a good faith effort to be fair, but I am human and have my own values, which may be as noble or as flawed as your own. I am no counselor and have no special insights." But he does make the rules.
[23:45] Lxxx Sxxxxx: If you don't like the new rule, then go somewhere that doesn't have the rule.
[23:45] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Your "making a stand" is just "making a scene".
[23:45] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: One hates to see a long time resident make bad choices, but ultimately making such a choice and the consequences that come with it are their personal choice. Enough from me.Yet you're treating him with such disrespect.
[23:46] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: exactly - CHOICE is a marveouls thing
[23:46] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And you're making someone that a lot of us care about, very unhappy.
[23:46] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Mainland is a great deal these days! Costs less and has more prims. And I am not being sarcastic when I say that!
[23:47] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: (I often use that phrase with people at Oxbridge before kicking someone out: We have rules, you have choices. Choices have consequences.)
[23:47] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: actually, I really, really cheered by this conversation on one level... there is a real consensus in Caledon that the ConFed flag is not acceptable... and everyone is arguing calmly
[23:48] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: it really si that simple, [Wxxx]
[23:49] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I don't think I've ever seen a confederate battle flag in Caledon
[23:49] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: So I'm amazed it is such a problem.
[23:49] Lxxx Sxxxxx: If I have, I didn't pay attention to it.
[23:49] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and now you never will, not for long
[23:49] Lxxx Sxxxxx: But some people do.
[23:49] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: I like it because it underlines each individual's responsibility when visiting privately owned land.
[23:49] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: I'll say again, Land Barons and EM's deal with this sort of thing BEHIND the scenes and often before anyone notices.
[23:50] Lxxx Sxxxxx: The good ones, anyway.
[23:50] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: She's correct. :-) (she = [Cx])
[23:50] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And Des is a good one.
[23:50] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Yes. He's the best Estate Owner in Second Life.
[23:50] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: so just because you haven't seen one, doesn't mean there hasn't been discussion about the issue before, or incidents before.I had to dig up a recipe after that mention, and couldn't find one that hit the notes of pecans in the shell of a butter crust with sherry. But I found a Pecan Brownie Pie, a Bourbon/Raisin Pecan Pie, and a Kentucky Bourbon Pecan Pie, all of which sound amazing.
[23:51] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Some of the complains may have been from griefing. Or visitors.
[23:51] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: and after what has happened i think it's very timely
[23:51] Lxxx Sxxxxx: *complaints
[23:53] Lxxx Sxxxxx: It's still very odd that you'd rather cause problems specifically over something designed to stop problems.
[23:54] Emilly Orr: It is, isn't it?
[23:54] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: *sighs* i have come to the conclusion that some people want to cause problems kist for the sake of causing problems, in both lives. . . . . . :(
[23:54] Emilly Orr: And here I thought Miss Portal was rather level-headed.
[23:54] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Well it's SL, we're all nuts.
[23:55] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: That must be it. I'm sure you all can name a host of problems I've caused in the past and drama I've been involved in.
[23:55] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: He's asking for help, really. He deserves it.
[23:55] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: *snicker*
[23:55] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: Bans the Southern Pecan
[23:55] Lxxx Sxxxxx rage quits
[23:56] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: So true [Lxxx]....so true!
[23:56] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You haven't caused a host of problems. Why start now?
[23:56] Mxxx Mxxxxxxxam: my mom made these pumpkin pecan pies with sherry, omg, the pie shell had chopped pecans with butter
[23:57] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: exactly.... playing "I dare you to get rid of me" with Land Barons and EM's does not work well.Pretty damn much. And she doesn't even see it.
[23:57] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx's mind is suddenly focused on the idea of that pie crust
[23:57] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Can you think of a single problem I've caused here in eight and a have years of residence before tonight?
[23:57] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And why do you want to sully that record?
[23:58] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: Exactly, keep the flawless record of no issues, it's easy.
[23:58] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You are causing problems NOW. Doesn't matter how many problems you didn't cause yesterday.
[23:58] Fxxxxxxx Oxxxxx: Just logged in and now confused......are we banning someone or eating pumpkin pecan pies?
[23:58] Emilly Orr: Well, tonight, you're just throwing away everything for a single prim. Doesn't make sense.
[23:58] Lxxx Sxxxxx: "I didn't shoot anyone for twenty years. Why is shooting someone bad now?"
[23:58] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I was responding to: [23:54] Artemiss Luminos: *sighs* i have come to the conclusion that some people want to cause problems kist for the sake of causing problems, in both lives. . . . . . :("For reasons", right. Like that's going to happen.
[23:58] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx is all about the pie at this point
[23:58] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: Damned straight [Fxxx], we are a cake based community
[23:59] Fxxxxxxx Oxxxxx: Steelhead....well.....cake, pie, cookies......
[23:59] Emilly Orr: Now, I admit, I had a tower in Winterfell at one point, that had meaning for me. I was asked to take it down. *I did*. That decision didn't sit well, though, and after a few more months, *I left*. Note, my choice to cooperate, my choice to leave. I was never *asked* to.
[23:59] Emilly Orr: Now you are being asked to cooperate with an edict from a land owner. Do it.
[23:59] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Well, no, [Exxxxxxxx] isn't causing problems now, at least not as the discussion exists. But continuing to display the flag will become a problem.
[00:00] Lxxx Sxxxxx: She is asking to cause the problem. She wants Des to log in and kick her out.
[00:00] Emilly Orr: Which is kind of high up in the stupidsphere, and is drama that can be easily avoided.
[00:01] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: it sounds mean but it isn't neant to be - if you don;t like something you can always leave, it's CHOICE
[00:01] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Or you can stay awake for the next 12 hours waiting for someone to log in and kick you out for reasons.
[00:02] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: I am reminded of a song: "I fought the Law and the Law won"Exactly. Exactly what's going to happen with this. Keep fighting, you won't win. Fight harder, you still won't win.
[00:02] Emilly Orr: And he won't do it. Do you know when he'll do something? When you don't pay your rent for a few weeks.Of course not. You're reading things incorrectly, and assuming everyone's attacking you with pitchforks and knives, and we're not even massing outside your dwelling.
[00:02] Nxxxx Rxxx: It is also a choice to protest.
[00:02] Emilly Orr: And even with that, he'll only reclaim the land, or sell it on, he won't ban you from Caledon.
[00:02] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: It will happen as she chooses in the end. And I assume Des will simply do it, perhaps offering a final chance to make a choice, but no particular drama.
[00:02] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Why would I not pay my rent for a few weeks?
[00:03] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: If I'm even a day late, I always pay back rent.
[00:03] Emilly Orr: People do. People have.
[00:03] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: By the way... pay your tier on time, or the Catgirls and fashionistas will come for you....and they will not be happy. You don't want unhappy catgirls and fashionistas.
[00:04] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: *giggles*
[00:04] Nxxxx Rxxx: At this point I think the ball is (sadly) in Des's park. I hate for him to have to deal with more stuff, but all the talk now isn't going to change anyone's mind as to what is best to do.
[00:05] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Yes, that is what saddens me. Des has to take MORE crap about something he JUST SAID he was tired of taking crap over.
[00:05] Nxxxx Rxxx: As for the tier issue, if everyone paid on time Des would be FAR happier with his job as landlord.
[00:05] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: as would other Land Barons of my Acquaintance as well.
[00:06] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: late/none tier payment is why we have lost so many regions
[00:06] Lxxx Sxxxxx: But he dropped the regions to keep the estate afloat.
[00:07] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: That and the general loss of SL residents.
[00:07] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: and I am still saddened over Glengarry going away and thusly losing my Glengarry Parcel, which I loved.
[00:07] Nxxxx Rxxx: Two neighbors of mine recently left Caledon. One just vanished with months of unpaid tier, all their stuff still rezzed on the parcel. The other cleaned off his parcel, paid AHEAD one month, and left Des a note. Guess which one made Des happy?
[00:07] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: yes
[00:07] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: sure it was basically a "park" but I loved that little thing.
[00:07] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I've been late a day or two on occasion, and always paid back rent for the days I was late. So if I was two days late (that's the latest), I've always paid the next weeks rent, plus 200L$ a day for each day I was late, and now i'm the problem with lost regions?
[00:08] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: no no, we're talking in General Miss [Exxxxxxxx].Yes, well put.
[00:08] Lxxx Sxxxxx: No, you're the problem with a flag you didn't rez.
[00:08] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Until someone told you not to.
[00:08] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Now you're being petulant about it.
[00:08] Nxxxx Rxxx: We were trying to change the conversation to another issueAfter the title, all the notice contained was was a picture:
[00:08] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: but imagine, that the flag is just one more burden on an overburdened land baron.
[00:08] Nxxxx Rxxx: One unrelated to you.
[00:08] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: *facepalms*
[00:08] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Ultimately, one in a position to enforce rules has to be able to do it without hate; basically with non-attachment. Simply do what needs to be done.
[00:09] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Group Notice Sent by: [Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx]
Waiting to be Banned
[00:09] Emilly Orr: You have lost your mind.(Continued in part four.)