[23:00] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I was leaving him alone.Did he? Really? After my trip to Oxbridge, reading through the extant notecard found on-site, I can't see where this policy conflicts with anything previously in the Covenant.
[23:00] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Which is nothing compared to what 20s Berlin has to deal with ALL THE TIME. People come to be asses just because.
[23:00] Lxxx Sxxxxx: But now you're not.
[23:00] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: He changed the rules.
[23:00] Nxxxx Rxxx: He told me he would LOVE to be just a renter.It's a good point. And Des is a gentler land baron than many--all he wants, truly, is for folks to obey the Lindens' rules, and his own limited ones. Stay in theme, be polite, try not to cause drama--done.
[23:00] Nxxxx Rxxx: That is his privelege.
[23:00] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He changed the rules, because he's the owner and he can do so.
[23:00] lxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I've booted several people from Oxbridge who showed up calling themseslves a Nazi or spouting any sort of hate speech. And will continue to do so.
[23:00] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: When someone does that at Oxbridge, their onsim expectancy reduces to about two seconds.
[23:00] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: nods.
[23:00] Lxxx Sxxxxx: If you don't want to live here under those rules, talk to him and get your money back.
[23:01] Nxxxx Sxxxxxxx: [Exxx], he owns the place, he makes the rules... why is it that if you own a region, people totally think it's ok to just ignore you and do what they please?
[23:01] Lxxx Sxxxxx: But if you're breaking a new rule just because it's a new rule, then you're just being a troll.Right. Because flying a Confederate flag has NOTHING TO DO with free expression "Free expression" does not mean "governmentally guaranteed free speech".
[23:01] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: All estate owners deal with this stuff. It's part of the "job". And long time estate owners can handle it. They would not still be estate owners if they couldn't.
[23:02] Lxxx Sxxxxx: This has become a bigger problem, and you're just jumping on to be part of the problem.
[23:02] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: The Ebil Land Barons have absolute authority and ..."The Forms Must Be Obeyed" ;-)
[23:02] Nxxxx Sxxxxxxx: It's odd, I am the head estate manager and head of security for Roclciffe University... and people come there all the time, see the rules and violate them while standing right there in front of the rules board... then get pissed when you tell them about it... *sigh*
[23:03] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I just looked at the Covenant. Teleported over to Oxbridge just for that. It hasn't been changed. Still has that nice long section on Freedom of Expression.
Also, a notice sent by Des to update said Covenant supersedes the 'official' posted notice, because it is a living document, it can change. Wait a few days, I'm sure the language will be updated to include the ban.
[23:04] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Same happens at Oxbridge, [Nxxxx]. Tell a vampire that being a vampire is okay, but no vamp role-play on the sim, they ignore that and get booted.Your reputation? Your dignity? Any shred of self-respct you may have had?
[23:04] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2015/07/second-life-confederate-battle-flag-linden-lab.html
[23:04] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: [Exxxxxxxx]....Don't....really just don't fight this...you will lose and feelings will be hurt....just don't.
[23:04] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: seems like Des is following LL community standards
[23:05] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Covenants get updated. It happens. Residents can choose to abide by the rules or to go to another estate with rules that are a better fit for them.
[23:07] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Or they can stand around saying "I dare you to kick me out!"
[23:07] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Which is not a very good thing to do.
[23:07] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Well, yes
[23:08] Nxxxx Sxxxxxxx: Well people, I have to go to bed, I have an early VA appointment to go to... lets see if they get it right this time... ta ta for now all
[23:08] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Good luck
[23:08] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I hope he doesn't, but from tonight's conversation, it's clear that everyone hates me now for standing up for free expression, so what do I have to lose?
[23:08] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I wish he would get on with it, though. It is already 1 am here.Also, there are two major problems with your argument here, Miss [Pxxxxx]. First is, you're not standing up for free expression, because one, there is only the amount of free expression on a private virtual land that the estate owner--and, ultimately--the server owner--chooses to allow, as it is not a venue for free speech. And second, you're not standing up for free expression because flying a Confederate flag of any configuration, especially after Des has explicitly and clearly banned such, means you're standing for the values of your ancestors who originally chose that flag as their symbol, in the rise of the early civil rights movements, as a way to keep 'colored people' down and afraid of retaliation from whites. Is that really what you want to stand proudly behind?
[23:08] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Nobody hates you.
[23:09] Emilly Orr: We may be perplexed by your opinions, but we don't hate you.
[23:09] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And if you're waiting for him to log back in just to boot you, you're going to wait a lot.[[Note from the Editrix--Wait, I just caught this on the editing reread. I won't say all residents in Caledon are friended to Des, because I'm sure there are some outliers, but in general, if one maintains a Caledon residence, Des offers friendship.
[23:09] Nxxxx Sxxxxxxx: thanks Lady... apparently in service injuries ajust aren't what they used to be. lol
[23:09] Nxxxx Sxxxxxxx: [Exxx], don't hate you, don't even know you...
[23:09] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Nothing is anymore
[23:10] Lxxx Sxxxxx: We just don't agree with you.
[23:10] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: He logged out?
[23:10] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I would have thought he would at least boot me while I was here.
[[Now, there are many reasons why Des would cease to be friends with anyone, and many of them are not sinister in the least--I still remember how Des discovered the thousand-friend cap that Linden Lab possessed at the time. However,, I think it's of note to point out here: Miss [Pxxxxx] didn't know that Des had already logged off. She is not on his friendslist.
[23:10] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He doesn't want to boot anybody.Likely because it's a long and specific document. I can understand that.
[23:11] Emilly Orr: If you're talking Des, no he's offline.
[23:11] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: He'd rather not evict anyone.
[23:11] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: It might take a few days for him to update it on the sims. I think Caledon is divided into multiple (technical) estates. That's a lot of covenant updating.
[23:11] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: No. There is only one copy of the Covenant now. It is in Oxbridge
[23:11] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He switched to keeping the covenant on Oxbridge so he didn't have to update all of them.
[23:11] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: The rest of the sims just have a note saying go read that copy
[23:11] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: he is forgiving on tier (to a certain extent) he's forgiving on other issues...
[23:12] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: It makes it much easier for him.
[23:12] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Ahh - ok. That makes total sense.
[23:12] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: And for a while years ago the covenant was causing bad lag
[23:13] Lxxx Sxxxxx: But he doesn't want to boot you, or anybody else. He just wants you to follow the rules, as lenient as they still are.Soooo much. All the things.
[23:13] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx wonders what she missed
[23:13] Nxxxx Rxxx: Yes. It was causing lag.And I did. Clear as day there. No changes that aren't already in like with Linden official policy. I'm baffled by this entire controversy.
[23:13] Emilly Orr: Apparently a lot, I just logged in a short while ago.
[23:13] Emilly Orr sets off to try to find the covenant in Caledon.
[23:13] Nxxxx Rxxx: See Des's recent notice.
[23:13] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Caledon Oxbridge is where it is.
[23:14] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: click the land tab when you get to Oxbridge
[23:14] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Des has been getting complaints about Confederate flags, and so he logged in and said "Please don't do that."I'm sure all the one of you is thrilled.
[23:14] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: A change to the convenant.
[23:14] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: ah
[23:14] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: *covenant
[23:14] Emilly Orr: Ah. Well, if that's all it is, I see no problem with it.
[23:14] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Not the convent ;-)
[23:14] Lxxx Sxxxxx: So, please don't do that. :P
[23:14] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: We need a convent here, too.
[23:15] Emilly Orr: We used to have a few, but they were...hmm. Convents of the original meaning?
[23:15] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Indeed
[23:15] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: just don't get into any dirty habits
[23:17] Lxxx Sxxxxx: A couple of years ago, I kept driving by a house in England with the Texas flag flying over it.
[23:17] Lxxx Sxxxxx: I thought... "Well that's something."
[23:17] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I just realized I had not been flying the proper flag until just now. I had the horizontal offset messed up on the back. It is now corrected.
[23:18] Lxxx Sxxxxx: [Exxxxxxx], if you are really that insistent that you are going to fly that flag until you are kicked out, you are GOING to be kicked out.Why do you think so?
[23:18] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: Don't play games of "chicken" with land baron's and EM's, you will lose.
[23:19] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Either that or just having it returned on a regular basis.
[23:19] Lxxx Sxxxxx: I'm not sure why you want to take a stand over something that has been building hate for at least 80 years.
[23:19] Lxxx Sxxxxx: It's not the flag's fault, but this will be yours.
[23:19] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Is there an EM online who would like to kick me out?
[23:20] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx: why are you so eager to be kicked out?
[23:20] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Because it will make them ... happy?
[23:20] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I am not. I want Desmond to rescind the rule change.It won't. He won't change his mind.
[23:20] Nxxxx Rxxx: I gather her point is she resents the change in the Covenant because freedom of expression is very important to her. I don't think her chosen method of protest makes any sense because it will not only cause Des MORE headaches, but it will truly upset others who have nothing to do with the Covenant change.Exactly. This makes no sense.
[23:20] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He's not going to.
[23:21] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx kind of thinks that is not going to happen
[23:21] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He's spent a decade trying not to change it.
[23:21] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He's not going to unchange it for at least another decade.
[23:21] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx: seems to me that insisting on being kicked out is only going to make the rule more solidly in place after the fact
[23:21] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: as a Brit and an outside observer I would observe that there are much more important issues in the world to take a stand over than a war that has been over for more than 150 years
[23:21] sxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I agree
[23:21] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: [Exxxxxxxx], a hypothetical, if I was an Ebil Land Baron with a rule against that flag and you said what you have been saying, I'd just evict ban right now.... I might refund your L$ in the meter, or not..... but I am not as....easygoing as some. I'm going to suggest again, to not play chicken with EM's and Land barons.Apparently not, there's a bunch of Southern yahoos still insistening on flying this flag as part of their 'cultural heritage'.
[23:23] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Des does not want to kick anyone out, and he does not want those flags. You are choosing to be kicked out, on purpose. So if you're that mad, then leave.
[23:23] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: If the war has been over for 150 years, why are people suddenly now refighting it? Do they think the Confederacy didn't lose hard enough the first time?
[23:23] Emilly Orr: Miss [Pxxxxx], I doubt EMs or Des himself will kick you out. They will, likely, return your flag.Wow, you are a clueless block of ignorance. What would saying "You will not replace us" have fixed, or have made better? It was still a bunch of idiots threatening protesters with burning torches, yelling slurs and insults.
[23:23] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Apparently not, because the idiots waving it around now seem to think it gives them superpowers or something.
[23:24] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: I'm sorry, did you not see the people with flags saying things like "Jews will not replace us"?
[23:24] Emilly Orr: And chanting "Hail Victory"--which is what "Sieg Heil" means in English?
[23:24] Emilly Orr: Or throwing Nazi salutes? No, Charlottesville upped the game.
[23:24] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: and as some might put it "Jim Freaking Crow"
[23:24] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Ms [Pxxxxx], because of what the flag always meant and what its supports still believe it represents
[23:24] Emilly Orr: And Des has been having this fight, OVER and over, for YEARS now.
[23:25] Emilly Orr: It wasn't even the original flag of the Confederacy!
[23:25] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: That makes no sense. "Jews will not replace us"? Jews are less than 1% of the population. They were probably saying "you will not replace us"
[23:25] Emilly Orr: It was adopted AFTER the war was over!Maybe to you, but to anyone with an actual, functional creasining capacity it makes perfect sense.
[23:25] lxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Hate doesn't go away easily.
[23:25] Lxxx Sxxxxx: No, they said both.
[23:25] Emilly Orr: There are recordings, Miss [Pxxxxx].
[23:25] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: I'm sorry, but I Heard it VERY clearly.
[23:25] Emilly Orr: They can clearly be heard.
[23:25] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: That makes no sense.
[23:25] Lxxx Sxxxxx: They were yelling JEW on purpose.Yet you're on the side of those idiots. Beware the company you keep.
[23:25] lxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Jews get the rap for a lot of things that don't make sense.
[23:25] Lxxx Sxxxxx: THEY make no sense.
[23:25] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Well, I never said they were not idiots.
[23:25] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: hello anti-semitism!Let me restate that, because it sounds vaguely important. Des did not push anyone into doing anything. He was putting his foot down in a meaningful way to preserve the overall peace of a region under his control. Anyone, or anything, that threatens that region he will find a way to deal with. If Ms. [Pxxxxx] continues to threaten that region, he will find a way to deal with her.
[23:25] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And you are siding with them, in this fight.
[23:25] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: And they clearly don't know their history well.
[23:26] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: He's not going to change the change. This is me talking, not that an EM is an official anything or gets any inside scoop, but his RL time is short. These issues eat up his time. Bluntly, you like Caledon? Or want to grind him so that when he looks at the books and sees the late tier payment he think "why bother?" You want to push that issue? Des wants Caledon to go on and on but why flipping push the man?
[23:26] Lxxx Sxxxxx: You apparently like making Des miserable.
[23:26] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: Don't play chicken with land barons and EM's you WILL lose.
[23:26] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Because he pushed me first.
[23:26] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He didn't push anybody.
It will not make him happy, but one resident over the masses...well, it's always going to come down to the residents that aren't violating the covenant, isn't it? That's just simple logic.
[23:26] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Be that as it may, the usage of a symbol can change its meaning, as happened with the Swastika.Because when Caledon first rose from the virtual sea, the only people who affected Nazi uniforms and symbolism were griefers and trolls. I'm sure no one felt that they needed to institute an estate-wide ban, because what sane person would embrace Nazis in any way?
[23:26] Cxxxxxxxxx Cxxxxxxx: his regions, his rules.
[23:26] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: Hoo boy...
[23:27] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx: he didn't push you. He made a rule about what he's willing to deal with in his reigon as is his right.
[23:30] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: But why pick on the Confederate Flag? The covenant doesn't even ban Nazi stuff? It's just weird.
[23:30] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Ultimately, all estates in SL are private property.That too. Yes.
[23:30] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Well, Nazi stuff would be out of period, of course.
[23:31] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx: Nazi stuff is covered under hate speech and symbols, I believeAlso that. Ultimately, while private estates can make their own covenants of behavior--and many, including Caledon, do--the overarching terms of service Linden Lab maintains is the ultimate standard of conduct. And they have banned hate speech and symbols since they've been a virtual world in the first place.
[23:31] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: not really, the views and hate have historical rootsNot very well, apparently.
[23:31] Lxxx Sxxxxx: He wants people to play nice.
[23:31] Lxxx Sxxxxx: THAT is his rule.
[23:31] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: pogroms went on against Jews for 100s of years before the Nazi party was invented
[23:32] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Yes, I know my history.
[23:33] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: yet you want to support this symbol?And always has been, from day one in the alpha.
[23:33] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: European Christians, (both Catholic and Protestant) persecuted Jews from the time that the Roman empire adopted Christianity as the state religion.
[23:33] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I'm not flying a Nazi flag.
[23:33] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Apparently they just want the right to make people uncomfortable before they will stop.
[23:34] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: 'those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them' or some such
[23:34] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: As [Cxxxxx] said, Nazi stuff would be cover under hate speech because it has become symbolic of such speech.
[23:34] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: - "An avatar may express ideas and opinions without fear of retribution. - Please note that slander, libel, hate speech (racial, ethnic or homophobic, or gender slurs), scamming, fraud, harassment &c. are not considered free speech and thus not protected."
[23:34] Gxxxxxxxx Rxxx: That's good. Because that would get you kicked out of SL. Nazi stuff is against LL's TOS.
[23:34] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I thought the discussion was about the Confederate flag? which has been taken over by people with the same message as the Nazis?Now you're being silly.
[23:34] Lxxx Sxxxxx: That's part of the problem.
[23:35] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx): it was, but [Exxxxxxxx] commented that it's not fair 'cause not even the nazi flag is mentioned
[23:35] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Victorian England (which Caledon is modeled after) in Real Life colonized and conquered nearly half the world. Let's ban steampunk.
[23:35] Axxxxxxx Lxxxxxx: all i know is that SL has been terrible since Charlottsville, every sim i go to has people arguing about the stupid confederate flag and other CLEAR symbols of racism :(Maybe, but that's not under discussion. I do know Miss Kamenev had a wonderful series of talks some years back on Orientalism and steampunk, pity I can't track them down now, but in essence: yes, the free adoption of Indian details (along with Japanese and Chinese ones, as Britons traveled the world) was offensive because of why the British did it: namely, that as whites, cultural appropriation didn't strike them with any impact, because anyone not a member of the Great and Shining Island didn't really matter, in any realistic sense. And yes, that's a very offensive idea.
[23:35] Lxxxxxx Mxxxxxx: so we pointed out it's covered
[23:35] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: And that's a good point.
[23:36] Mxxx Mxxxxxxx: We're expected to be adults with common sense and manners. Bento nose picking motions bug me.
[23:36] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I bet people in India would find Caledon pretty damn offensive.
[23:37] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Or in Southern Africa.
[23:37] Lxxx Sxxxxx: And if they do, they have every right to go somewhere else.
But at its core, we are steeped in our modernity. We can understand why a people did a thing, and how, without fully committing to their flaws of logic. And we may learn from the racism and prejudices of the past without adopting them ourselves.
Something Miss [Pxxxxx] seems to have missed in all of this.
[23:37] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: the 3 people from that heritage I was talk to yesterday think it is wonderfulI would tend to agree. But then, I'm already wondering how deep Miss [Pxxxxx]'s apparently 'knowledge' of history goes, as well.
[23:37] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Southern Africa is more Dutch problems.
[23:37] Lxxx Sxxxxx: Northern Africa is more French problems.
[23:37] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: one of them is a 2000 day old AV
[23:37] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: Where the British not only oppressed the black people, but the white people, too.
[23:38] Wxxxxxxxx Jxxxxxxx: Ultimately, Des has the authority to make and interpret the rules and enforce them either personally or by delegation. While he tries to be fair, his interpretation of what a symbol means is the bottom line. The covenant includes that he is not Solomon. It also says "Please note that we are not constitutional rights experts, this may be an imperfect document, and we may not make perfect decisions every time. But we promise to try to do things right in good faith.."
[23:38] nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: interesting as this is, it is off the point
[23:38] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: I will give the British Empire credit for banning the slave trade.
[23:38] Exxxxxxxx Pxxxxx: And being willing to enforce it with their Navy, even to the extent of treating slave ships as pirates.
[23:39] lxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: And the people demonstrating and waving around Confederate flags today, are against anyone who is different from them. I doubt most of those punks have a clue about most of the history.
(Continued in part three.)