long way down, suffocating in this dream

Pursuant to the (far earlier) discussion about Tilia, this longish chat capture:

[12:56] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: Hello neighbors
[12:57] Jxxxxx Zxxx: Hi [Rxx]
[12:57] Cxxx Sxxxxxxxx: Greetings Mr. [Oxxxxxxx]!

Now, this is, in the technical sense, breaking an agreement I had with one of the personages above (who I will not further identify in any way), not to mention them on this blog. I am hazarding they meant in an unflattering light, and not just casual conversation along with the rest of everything. If I am wrong in this assumption, expect this entry to disappear at some point.

[12:58] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: just got the information by a friendly cat, that LL prepared some serious changes. I have not read the articles myself, but you can find the forum thread about it here: https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/439384-tilia-takes-over/
[13:08] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: This only affects people with USD accounts, that process credits through them. If you use a credit card or similar to buy L$, there's no change.
[13:09] Emilly Orr: Through Tilia, or...? Because card purchases do accrue the fee now.
[13:10] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: In other words, people who keep a USD balance at LL

I'm still not sure, but to be honest, I haven't followed up, just engaged in a wait-and-see policy. Or watch-if-things-explode, is another way to put it.

[13:10] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Feds pestering LL again for potential of money laundering? BEcause this looks a lot like what banks have been doing to be able to do business in the USA
[13:10] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: I have no idea. the nice cat said, some business owners in SL are closing now because of this change.
[13:11] Emilly Orr nods.

So far, that I know of, Purplemoon Creations has closed, Carrie's Lingerie is closing, Ember Games (mentioned below) may have closed, and there's a few others I don't remember the names of offhand. Yes, it is true, stores close all the time, but some of these are big, established names.

[13:11] Emilly Orr: It's also going to affect Euro residents deeply, as Tilia will be demanding personally identifying information to verify the accounts.
[13:11] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: again, only if you keep a USD balance at LL, not if you only purchase L$ using a credit card
[13:12] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I wonder if any Eastern European oligarghs are in SL...
[13:12] Emilly Orr: Not true according to what I read of Tilia's terms of service.
[13:12] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: i.e. most residents, even European ones, will not be affected
[13:12] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: Tilia already handles L$ purchases by credit card for us
[13:12] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: If they convert Linden dollars to U$, they will be.
[13:12] Emilly Orr: "4. Your Tilia Account
4.1. Identity Authentication
If you use certain Tilia Services, federal and state law requires that Tilia verify your identity. This means that Tilia may require you to provide your name, street address, date of birth, social security number, and other information that will allow us to identify you. We may also ask to see a copy of your driver’s license or other documents at any time. You authorize Tilia, directly or through third parties, to make any inquiries we consider necessary to validate your identity and the information you provide. You may be required to provide confirmation of ownership of your email address or financial instruments or you may have to verify your information against third party databases or other sources. Tilia reserves the right to close, suspend, or limit access to your Account and/or the Tilia Services in the event we are unable to obtain or verify this information or your identity."

That does seem to indicate not only that individuals release personally identifying information, whether or not an individual keeps an extant cash balance in their accounts to be converted into local currency.

[13:12] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: well, I'm in the EU, but many friends are US-based, so it tangents we any way
[13:13] Emilly Orr: That's from their ToS: https://www.tilia-inc.com/legal/tos/
[13:13] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: "If you use certain Tilia Services"
[13:13] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: not ALL Tilia services

And admittedly, that is the point that remains unclear.

[13:13] Emilly Orr: As I understand it, asking for that level of information is now illegal to request from European citizens.
[13:13] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: That is going to make dealing with LL very complex. At least if one deals with money
[13:14] Emilly Orr: Yes.
[13:14] Kxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: uh-oh.
[13:14] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: (apparently 'Tilia' is Latin word for 'Linden')
[13:14] Emilly Orr: It is.
[13:14] Kxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: of course.
[13:15] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Banks have right to ask for personal information from their customers, even in Europe. LL is not equivalent to a bank so they are effectively assuming authority they do not have.
[13:15] Kxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: wow.
[13:16] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: But this does seem like the old news about using SL to launder money. So if you are getting money out of SL, LL wants to know who you are.
[13:16] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: well, some governments are worried about Facebook's plan to introduce this new currency, but our Linden-Dollars are officially play-money
[13:17] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Since Linden Dollars can be converted to real money, that's basically rhetoric.
[13:17] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: yeah, but they made a TOS change about that years ago
[13:18] Emilly Orr: If it was just in response to Lindens being treated as real currency, they covered themselves on that score eight years back.
[13:18] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: You already cannot buy huge amounts of Linden Dollars at once to ensure you are not putting your drug money to SL to launder it.

That and general money laundering, yes. So if they're already legally protected--in at least two different directions--why launch an entire new company solely to handle money transfers from individuals to the Lab? It doesn't make practical sense. There's something else going on.

[13:21] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: I suspect those businesses who don't declare their SL income will want to pull their money out before August 1st.

Perhaps some businesses did. Perhaps others are transferring Lindens to friends who have no issues going through the process. And then closing their businesses and quietly leaving, or coming back on alts that have no intention to retail in SL.

[13:21] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx): is this about that new company that will handle lindens?
[13:22] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: Well, actually - they will handle Lindens to dollars and they're owned by LL. They're not a new company
[13:22] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: :sighs "basicly what happened is that a court ruled that electronic arts was a legal form of gambling..so of course, that aopplies to everywhere

I can't track down the actual ruling, so I'm not sure if that's more than a rumor, but I did track down this article which goes into the nature of the problem. How'ver, that's far and away from what's under discussion at present.

[13:22] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: They've been handling purchases of Lindens by non-US citizens for some time already.
[13:22] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: so we have loot boxes to thank

Maybe. Maybe not. The Lab already squelched both banks and open gambling in SL, what, a full decade back? So it's not that.

[13:22] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: I think it's a money laundering thing - as usual
[13:23] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: AGreeing with that
[13:23] Kxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: how clean does money have too be?
[13:23] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: i.e. if you're cashing out L$ into USD, they want to know who you are
[13:23] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: well, as they as they do not demand the sort of id normally required for credit axccounts

Ah, but there's the hitch. Read passage four from the ToS again for Tilia. They have all and every plan to do exactly that.

[13:23] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: they will if you have a credit account, i.e. a USD balance with LL
[13:24] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: that means pretty much all business in SL, I would think
[13:24] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: businesses*
[13:24] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: so, when a SL business shuts down because of upcoming TOS change, they are afraid of revealing their identity?
[13:25] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: possibly - or they don't declare their SL income in their home country
[13:25] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: May be just a principle of the thing to them
[13:26] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: yes, if they're not earning that much it might not be worthwhile to them
[13:26] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I do remember that one Australian guy who made al his creations free of charge because he noticed that IRS wanted to tax him because the income was gained in the USA
[13:26] Emilly Orr: Or, they're just tired of being in SL, that happens too.
[13:26] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: and again, I think now that the courts are snooping into gaming, they want to have armopr
[13:26] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: granted, we are NOT ea, but
[13:26] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: EA=satan

Yes, but again, we're discussing Tilia specifically.

[13:26] Emilly Orr: And as far as I know, Tilia *is* a newly established company, formed precisely for this purpose.
[13:27] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: yes, the IRS like their share of anything they can persuade themselves is earned in the US - even if you're not a US citizen
[13:27] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: IIRC EA wants to monetize _everything_
[13:27] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: Emilly, Tilia EU has been processing my L$ purchases for some time now
[13:27] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: evenn if it makes people stay the hell away from theiur games
[13:27] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Yeah, the print-by-demand service Lulu had to apologize to their non-American customers who did not expect to be taxed in the USA: That includes some people I personally know here.
[13:28] Emilly Orr: Well, fair enough then, I just noticed it beginning this month. Before this, no charges marked Tilia were on my statements.
[13:28] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: With Amazon, you have to sign that you're not a US citizen AND that your income isn't generated on US-based servers, or something
[13:28] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: So if one lady I know sells a copy of her Finnish-language poetry collection she has to deal with IRS...
[13:29] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: wow
[13:29] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: well, that is because the us taxes people aboraid
[13:29] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: If you're in the US, you wouldn't have been aware of Tilia before
[13:29] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Dealing with the new print-by-demand ompany in Germany is not that complex...
[13:29] axxxxxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: basicly as a futile attempt to go after the billionaires that stuff tax havens
[13:30] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: VistaPrint?
[13:30] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: The US taxes all US citizens, wherever they earn their money, and all non-US citizens who earn in the US - unless you can prove that you already pay at least an equivalent amount of tax in a country that has a double taxation agreement with the US
[13:31] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: ohoh
[13:31] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Yup
[13:31] Emilly Orr: Gad, VistaPrint is so awful, don't deal with them. They offset their custom work frequently, and their post-it notes don't stick.
[13:31] Ixxxxx Dxxxxxxx: If however you pay tax at 20% and the US would charge you 40%, you have to pay the 20% difference to the IRS
[13:31] Jxxxx Dxxxxxxx: sonofabiskits
[13:32] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I meant Books on Demand. Thought I have not used them myself
[13:32] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: https://www.bod.fi/
[13:32] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Books are printed in Germany
[13:33] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: I heard about this because some members of the Finnish Science Fiction Writers have used them.
[13:33] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: ah

The same fellow sent me this link, which I believe leads to the same company.

[13:40] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: well, we can keep an eye on this topic, and I guess more information might get revealed later
[13:42] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: There may be some changes as well.
[13:43] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: btw
[13:43] Emilly Orr: Let's hope.
[13:43] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: No, i have no money to buy a way....
[13:43] Emilly Orr: To date, the Tilia website quoted doesn't exist, so I'm hoping it will spontaneously appear August 1st.

And I am sad to say I didn't check August 1st to see if that were true. It does now, though, and the initial blurb I read reading that makes it sound like Linden Lab is aiming for a larger section of the pie, so to speak--not just funding and exchange through Second Life, but funding and exchange through any virtual world setting.

[13:43] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: the fine cat also told me, a Jez Ember is giving up their business, and therefor giving away the table games for free, like Greedy
[13:44] Emilly Orr: Really? I'll have to tell friends who play.
[13:44] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: well, she told me so. I never played it myself, and this Jez Ember is not known to me
[13:44] Emilly Orr: That makes three I've heard of so far--PurpleMoon Creations, Carrie's Lingerie, and Ember Games.
[13:45] Emilly Orr: At least we know PurpleMoon is closing because the designer wants to stay at home with her new baby.
[13:47] Rxxxxxx Oxxxxxxx: one has to pay 1 L$ for a game, but it gets refunded. and one avatar can buy two games only

I didn't know about the limitations, but in case anyone's interested, here's Ember Games. I've never been one for card games in SL--the closest I got was the early days of sim-leveling mahjongg boards--but it might be nice to own the one or two allowed.

[Note from the Editrix: I intended to get this out two weeks ago. So...at this point, Ember may have already closed.] Bother.

[13:58] exxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Are they closing their Marketplace accounts as well?
[14:05] Emilly Orr: Carrie Bridger is leaving jewelry up on her marketplace, but no attire. PurpleMoon is leaving things up on her marketplace for now, but the designer has said she'll likely kill her MP when she formally finishes closing things down.

And then it hit on another front--a store group's Discord:

2:30 PM] Chloe: https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/2577-important-changes-to-your-second-life-account-introducing-tilia/
2:31 PM] Chloe: more hoops to jump through for SL
[2:34 PM] Chloe: So anyone who cashes out - its the 7.5% plus whatever tilia will charge now too, plus paypal fees, plus submitting ALL your identification to tilia now and they can take up to 30 days to process stuff. With no warning again
[2:34 PM] Tia: umm so what happens if you just wanna buy lindens?
[2:35 PM] Chloe: Im guessing you would buy it through the tilia account it says is created for you automatically and I would assume they charge a service fee for that too cause apparently they havent been greedy enough yet
[2:35 PM] Tia: wow
[2:35 PM] Chloe: also it says if you dont use your tilia account in a 12 month period you get charged a fee for inactivity
[2:35 PM] Tia: it also says in the terms they can cancel tilla tokens without warning
[2:36 PM] Chloe: So if you have alt accounts and they get created tilia accounts please watch that to see if you can cancel them so youre not charged inactivity fees on alts
[2:37 PM] Chloe: Why does it feel like they are trying to completely destroy SL - it makes no sense when it probably makes them millions a year, like what genius is running things
[2:37 PM] Tia: they just wanna make more money
[2:37 PM] Tia: greedy
[2:37 PM] Chloe: you dont make more money that way, you do it in ways that dont piss off people when theres already a dying userbase
[2:38 PM] Chloe: you do things to help grow it so you get more money and things that actually make sense - like when someone suggested charging for partnerships a higher amount, that makes sense as its not something that would actually affect peoples lives in a big way
[2:39 PM] Tia: true
4:56 AM] Fr0zenHawk Chillsmoke: Just wanting to clarify some information I'm seeing posted: New fees will be 5% ($3 minimum) they've warned us about this fee increase for a while now. Time to process is expected to be the same as now, the 30 days is the just-in-case time on the outside. Just checking your balance counts as activity, and inactivity fees can't drain your account below 0.

(I'm not saying these are good changes, just wanting to prevent more panic over misinformation.

So now it's not going to be the already insane $1.49 to buy Lindens, but a full three dollars? Ridiculous.

I'd like verification on that, and I'll do better trying to find it.