Friday, September 13, 2013

it feels like we're pulling teeth

So...this happened:

[19:24] mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: can someone please explain something to me if something is ggaist the law as discrimination then how can there be discrimination on sl?
[19:25] Axxxxx Txxxxxx: huh?
[19:25] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: Huh?
[19:25] Sxxxxxx Rxxxx: huh?
[19:25] Sxxxxx Gxxxxxxxx: wat
[19:25] Rxxxxx Rxxxxx: discrimination?
[19:25] Mxxxxxxx Gxxxxx: SL is a virtual world, not a physical world

Pretty much. We were all kind of confused. (And no, I've left typos intact.)

[19:25] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: amybe someone that has been on sl longer than 3 years like me or leis is fine

She seemed to be implying that the longer we live on the grid, the less culpable we are for our actions. Which is patently false, and also, confusing again.

[19:25] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: sl is like someone's living room
[19:25] Axxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxx: just like muder is against the law but there is still murder just cause its against the law doesn't mean people wont do it
[19:25] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: oh so people do what they want to here?
[19:26] Mxxx Hxxxxxxxx: some do
[19:26] Txxxxxx Sxxxxxxxxx: They do that anywhere

Also largely true, but we were still trying to figure out what she was saying.

[19:26] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: no, they do what they want within the ToS
[19:26] Txxxxxx Sxxxxxxxxx: If people want to break laws, they will
[19:26] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: There are some things that will cost you your account if you're caught.
[19:26] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Linden makes the rules.
[19:26] Mxxx Hxxxxxxxx: speeding is against the law, who can say they don't speed?


[19:27] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: well one is safer going with flow of traffic if everyone is speedeing
[19:27] Sxxxxxx Rxxxx: people have to abide by LL ToS but like RL laws not everyone does
[19:27] Sxxxxxx Rxxxx: What exactly are you being discriminated by?
[19:28] Axxxxxx Txxxxxx: yeah, i was gonna ask what kind of discrimination?
[19:28] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: You can discriminate on a a personal level RL, just not on a professional level
[19:28] Emilly Orr: And yes, Ann, while there are rules on SL, some folks don't bother. Sometimes that gets them in trouble, sometimes it doesn't. Kind of like RL.

Which, annoyingly, is true everywhere. It's why everyone's so paranoid about copyright infringement still, because on the grid it's still so terribly easy to do.

[19:29] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: well i never went to a gay bar so i put on short shorts tank top combat boots and mylie cyrus hair and i was ejected cause they said mails only and your name is [axx] so out u go

And there we had it. Confusion solved. And new confusion retained, because seriously, this is a completely baffling thing in the first place. And to be angry over supposed online discrimination, because she went to a gay bar and got kicked out for not being male...because she wasn't...I mean, honestly, talk about your straight girl privilege speaking. Jesus.

[19:29] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: that's absolutely ok.
[19:29] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: Make a male alt.
[19:29] Mxxx Hxxxxxxxx: thats not discrimination
[19:30] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: eww
[19:30] Emilly Orr: That's not discrimination.
[19:30] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: or find a bar that allows both genders
[19:30] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: it is discrimination for sex

No, no it's not. First of all, there's no strict discrimination policies against genders clubs on the grid are forced to allow in. It's their clubs. If they don't want people with purple skin in their clubs, they have the right to tell them to get out. Same thing goes for women in male-only clubs, men in female-only clubs, et cetera. That's not discrimination.

Or, to put it more plainly, there is absolutely nothing in the Community Standards that prohibits owners of a bar from disallowing a patron access to their club, simply on the grounds that she was the wrong gender. If they don't want girls in their clubhouse, they don't have to have 'em. Same thing goes for all-female sims who don't want males on their property. That's allowed.

What's not allowed is being vicious, insulting, racist, or generally bigoted about it. Which, from everything she'd said so far, didn't sound as if that was the case.

[19:30] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: that's your mistake, [Axx] - know where you're going.
[19:30] Emilly Orr: they're allowed to do that. Just like there are lesbian-owned sims, and only women are allowed.
[19:30] Sxxxxxx Rxxxx: that sounds more like trying to crash a private club


[19:30] Mxxx Hxxxxxxxx: they have the right to set rules like that, and I can direct you to a bar for women only if you wnat
[19:30] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: We're allowed ot chose to not have sex with people.
[19:30] Txxxxxx Sxxxxxxxxx: If its males only, its males only. Not a gay/lesbian bar
[19:30] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: it is if i own a restaurant

And we were confused again. The hell did that even mean?

[19:30] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: If you own a private club you set the rules.
[19:30] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: Sims are private property, not public.

Also a very good point.

[19:30] Sxxxxxx Rxxxx: I have seen places that are women's only too
[19:30] Axxxxxx Txxxxxx: this is second life
[19:30] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: get over it, [Axx] - move on.
[19:30] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: and i have sing that sayd whites only and i am baptist so no gays i get in big trouble

Well, yes, because that's an idiot position to hold in this day and age. But that's RL you're talking about, not SL.

[19:31] Emilly Orr blinks
[19:31] Emilly Orr: Wait, you're saying that because you own a restaurant in SL, you shouldn't be discriminated against? What?
[19:31] Mxxx Hxxxxxxxx: so have I, and never been in a mens only one
[19:31] Emilly Orr: Let me make sure I'm not misunderstanding. You own a restaurant, and you have a sign in it that says whites only, and no gays allowed, and you're angry over discrimination??
[19:31] Qxxxxxx Sxxxxxx: omg

Because seriously. Not only was that a stupid thing to say, it was an incredibly racist thing to say. And after starting the conversation bleating about being discriminated against...I swear, at the time I thought I literally heard my brain fall out and hit the floor.

[19:31] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: A male alt is a really quick fix to a mens only place, srsly.
[19:31] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: [Dxxxxxxx], that's bad advice
[19:31] Zxxxxxx Zxxxxx: Just like Frank's and Bogart's don't allow furries..not even just a tail and ears. Has to appear humanoid. They even kicked Torley Linden, with his Linden name on, because he had on an elephant avi.
[19:32] Mxxxxx Qxxxxxxx: oh wow they did?
[19:32] Zxxxxxxx Zxxxxx: yep.
[19:32] Emilly Orr nods. There was a historical old west sim I wanted to go to once, and they allowed nothing with fur, not even cat eyes. At the time I was mostly neko, so I had to go completely human.
[19:32] Emilly Orr: But sims have the right to do this.

Yeah. They do. Someone owns a sim, they pay rent on that sim to the Lab, that gives them certain rights (and responsibilities) over that land. If they don't want a certain species/gender/whatever on their property, we may dislike it all we want, but unless it's outright discriminatory in a major way--like a big "NO JEWS" sign on the entrance, say--they're within their rights to do so. Because it's their sim, and they get to make the rules.

[19:32] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: Exactly - it's perfectly acceptable; there are many places you can go - even places to explore things you have no experience with -- but to not accept the rules of an establishment ... well, that's on you lol
[19:32] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: A lot of places don't like furries. I got kicked out of someplace because my AO flies.
[19:33] Qxxxxxx Sxxxxxx: AO files?
[19:33] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: Yup, my stands look like i was flying.
[19:33] Emilly Orr: No, her AO flies. As in, it makes her fly.
[19:33] Qxxxxxx Sxxxxxx: ohhh
[19:33] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: So they asked me to leave. And I did. XD

I don't know if she was talking about the Avilion sim, but I know for a fact that's a rule they have--no flying without explicit permission from the owners. And again--they're allowed to have that rule.

[19:33] Sxxxxx Gxxxxxxxx: eh i get booted from places all the time for being too short
[19:34] Mxxx Hxxxxxxxx: I have a freind like that, they think shes a child avi
[19:34] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: -- but to not accept the rules of an establishment ... well, that's on you lol
[19:34] Dxxxxxxx Qxxxxxx: I've been asked to change if I'm in Lolita gear.
[19:34] Zxxxxxx Zxxxxx: If you have an establishment that you are going for a realistic human clientele, furries wouldn't work.

And all of the above are still true on the grid. Furries are still discriminated against, humans are occasionally discriminated against by furries, and short avatars get called ageplayers nearly everywhere. These are the crosses we choose to bear. Because it's a virtual world--we could always choose to be human (or not), or taller (or not), or tanned (or not)--whatever the standards are in any given place.

[19:34] Txxxxxx Sxxxxxxxxx: Basically, a public restaurant is not = to a sim. A sim is more like a private house, the owner sets the rules
[19:34] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: ok thx [Txxxxxx]

And that seemed to be the end of it...but I have a feeling she left without understanding why any of us had spoken against her whining in the first place.

Ah, well. Some avatars never learn.

[19:36] Cxxxxxx Rxxxxxxx: likes coffee and thunderstorms
[19:36] Qxxxxxx Sxxxxxx: right [Txxxxxx]!
[19:36] Zxxxxxx Zxxxxx: sighs..that would look so good with my collar.
[19:36] Mxxxxxxx Mxxxxxxxxx: oh never mind [Cxxxxxx]

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