Monday, September 15, 2014

I don't know, where have my senses gone?

Permadeath. It can be an uncomfortable concept for many, a confusing one for others. In most RPGs--whether or not they have an active roleplay element--permadeath is still an odd affectation, if it's seriously established at all. To many of us, it's only a strong concept in games that are specifically coded for permadeath. In games where life or death is entirely up to each player, it simply doesn't make sense to many of us--because "dying" is simply a condition of advancing in the game, and we always come back. Right?

Well, there's at least one fellow on Neverwinter seeking to change that.

[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Looking for members to start NW's first permadeath guild, whisper for info.
[Zone] One-eyed Jack@jimbrov: wtf does that even mean
[Zone] PVPsucks@luapmaharg: troll on permastealth?
[Zone] One-eyed Jack@jimbrov: permastealth is annoying but ultimately ineffective
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Looking for members to start NW's first permadeath guild, whisper for info.

So, meet Legend. As this was happening in Zone chat, and he could have literally been anywhere in Protectors's Enclave--or elsewhere, out of the main city, even--I have no idea what his character class was. I'd be willing to bet it's either Great Weapon Fighter, or Guardian Fighter, but even that doesn't even matter. What does is his intent: he wants to start a permadeath guild in Neverwinter.

As you'll see, this was largely met with derision, but before that, it was met with total confusion.

[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Looking for members to start NW's first permadeath guild, whisper for info.
[Zone] One-eyed Jack@jimbrov: you lose so much offense to pull it off you're basically only going to be able to pick off DCs...everyone else you'll just run away eventually
[Zone] 'Silvia'@calizarian1171: hehehe
[Zone] One-eyed Jack@jimbrov: I call permastealths mosquitos
[Zone] One-eyed Jack@jimbrov: annoying, but ultimately harmless
[Zone] Deecun@tryfoosty1: Till you get malaria
[Zone] Deecun@tryfoosty1: or dengue fever

Essentially, they'd misconstrued what Legend said entirely, from "permadeath"--the permanent, nonrecoverable death of characters--to "permastealth", which is an attribute of Trickster Rogues, their ability to invisibly sneak up to another player, backstab them, and sneak away again, having never been seen.

[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Looking for members to start NW's first permadeath guild, whisper for info.
[Zone] Crumb@docjake: permafukk you
[Zone] Crumb@docjake: guild spamming scum
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Looking for members to start NW's first permadeath guild, whisper for info.
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: That sounds really bad.
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: The permadeath guild thing
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: It's gonna catch on, it's a niche community ;)
[Zone] Derpy@durrdedurr: He won't be spamming much longer
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: How do you even
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Looking for member to start NW's first permadeath guild, whisper for info.
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Do you delete your lv 60 character because it died?
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Yes, Sandra.

And there's the rub--in a game like Don't Starve, for instance, all the items the character finds to protect and defend themselves are found in game--in chests, in hovels, in item drops, wherever. The only investment is the cost of the game--and perhaps, the machine to run it--and your time.

Conversely, in an MMORPG like Neverwinter, there's some serious money, real-world money, invested in your character by the time you reach level 60. You've perhaps bought companions, gear, crafting items, keys to unlock chests--there's ten thousand different ways to chip away your finances in an MMO, even one without a monthly subscription fee.

[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: That sucks lol
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: or join another guild.
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: You won't have to delete you just won't be allowed to keep that char in the guild.
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: you need to enforce deletion or wahere's the danger
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: join another guild. like yeah w/e
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Don't see the point of joining the permadeath guild in the first place
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Since you -will- eventually die
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Honor system Miss H, if you don't want the PD experience, don't bother.
[Zone] Calaeron@rversant: I guess its for Roleplay
[Zone] Triselbur@triselbur: And how exactly would he "enforce" deletion?
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: nor me, but if you are going to do it. do it properly or what's teh point

Indeed, that's one of my questions, but seriously, as there's no mechanism for enforcing character deletion, as Legend said, it would be entirely by the honor system. So, invest the time and money, delete your character when you die, and start all over again...or invest the time and money, and then drop a guild you may find helpful and fulfilling. Neither seem particularly attractive options.

[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: 'we're kinda hardcore guild'
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: We do not enforce deletion. That char will no longer be in PD guild.
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Again what's the point in joining that guild?
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Everyone has their character die at some point so it sounds just dumb
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: For players who want a hardcore experience that's all.
[Zone] Hex SixKiller@fangredwater: u mean for players who r not nubs
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: Sandra, don;t think that guild is for you. I wouldn't overthink it :)
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Hardcore. mfw
[Zone] Cym@gruntled1: so, just how would you know if someone died?
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: That too lol
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: they would have been deleted and no longer exist I guess
[Zone] Gorn@direworf: yeah join that guild spend lots of money on your char, get perfect vorpals, artifacts vs vs... and then when you die, go ahead and delete yor character... I would like to see that :D

I don't see it happening that often, to be honest. But he seems to be in earnest...and, at least for this hour-plus interchange, quite vocal.

[Zone] Phaeton@m3ta11ic: What if the guild was doing a boss and wiped?
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Then we would reroll.


That can't be...You can't be serious.

[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Lol it just sounds like an overall bad idea
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: no no no. you transfer all the good stuff off your char before deletion silly

Save for, many items come in bound to that particular character, and cannot then be transferred, even to another character on your account.

[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: "hardcore" my ass
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: no real risk need be involved
[Zone] One-eyed Jack@jimbrov: there isn't, Sandra, and infact, as far as gear goes, the best gear is crafted and bound, you can't buy it if you wanted to
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: No, every character must start at level 1. You are not allowed to quest without a guild member. PvP deaths do not count, but you can not level with PvP. No items will be carried over, if your character dies you lose all items.

The hell you say. No. No player is going to do this, ever. Seriously, no one. Why would they?

[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: What if they run out of AD
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: It may not be for you, but there are players who want that permadeath experience.

Why? Why do people want this?

[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: What's the penalty then xD
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: If they want permadeath experience they don't need a guild to enforce it.
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: They can just delete their character when it dies.
[Zone] Cym@gruntled1: people that want permadeath play diablo, not a p2p game
[Zone] One-eyed Jack@jimbrov: wtf does that even mean? permadeath?
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: You delete character or leave guild if your character dies
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Dumb as shit to base a guild on that
[Zone] One-eyed Jack@jimbrov: oh...rofl
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Well keep on hatin I will still be here trying to find like minded players :)

Good luck with that. I don't see it being a huge thriving guild, though.

[Zone] Cym@gruntled1: once again, how would you track whether or not someone has died?
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: would be better to just make it a drinking game.
[Zone] Alain Hawklight@jdt1: but they may want to be in a guild of people that are like minded, why keep trying to belittle the guy?
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: in PVP you die, you take a shot
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: That's why you can't run alone Cym.
[Zone] Cheesy Warlock Heals@cheesy211: drinking permadeath mmm lol
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Plus honor system.
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Why join a PD guild if you want to cheat?
[Zone] Thom Urthadar@rogue277: my RH hasn't died ever xD

I find that hard to believe, frankly.

[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: What's the point in it, even if there are likeminded people?
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Just play the game you know.
[Zone] Cym@gruntled1: you know this game is based on solo leveleing right? no one's gonna party to level

Well, there's no reason to get hostile, Rhiannon.

[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: People who want a permadeath experience can just do that on their own and delete their character when it dies. Why would you need a guild to enforce it for you?
[Zone] Hex SixKiller@fangredwater: but the quests r soooo borin - they will party after lvl 1 :D
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Permadeath has not been achieved in this game I'm about to make it a thing. ;)
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: There is no other guild like us. :)

No, that I can definitely believe is a true statement.

[Zone] Runeweaver@psyb3rtr011: With Lag being a factor, Permadeath is not fair.
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: There's a reason for that, Legend.
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: It's because it's a dumb idea.
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Runeweaver then PD is not for you ;)
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Such condescending attitude. Much wowe.
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Okay Sandra thanks for your opinion :)
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: So much condescending, very coolkid

Really, save for a couple of interchanges during this, everyone stayed fairly calm and more or less reasonable. Considering permadeath can be such a divisive issue in the gaming community, that's actually a good thing. I think.

[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Looking for members to start NW's first permadeath guild, whisper for info.
[Zone] Thom Urthadar@rogue277: rp would be fun in this game.
[Zone] Runeweaver@psyb3rtr011: Legend, you get me wrong. I am an Old Skool PnP Gamer, and think Perma death should be the norm. That said, that is in a PnP environment, where the DM has some influence on the results
[Zone] Miss H.@lihin23nihil: then proceed to sacrifice 2 goats, 4 chickens and a tub of ice cream to whichever dark gods you worship
[Zone] Sandra Baltar@jokerjackie: Runeweaver, he's not looking for input, he made that clear.
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: PvP deaths will not count in our guild, but will not be allowed to level ;)
[Zone] Hex SixKiller@fangredwater: whats a permadeath guild? -_- just dun sing the bird song like peter griffin ...
[Zone] Fey@user4035: so stupid
[Zone] nessa@blindopodo: is a guild that kills you in real life :D That is not what it is.

[Zone] SrPontes@leonus15: We cant level at lvl60 anyway

Also untrue--while there are no levels gained after level 60 in Neverwinter, additional points for spells and abilities, and additional rewards can be earned through the usual means.

[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Looking for members to start NW's first permadeath guild, whisper for info. [Zone] Mach@charkulls: NO CRAPP I KILLED YOU TWICE IN PVP LAST GAME AND YOU HAD NO DEATH ON SCORE BOARD AT THE END ...SHARE THE HACK LEGEND
[Zone] Rhiannon Morrigan@pharunmizzrim: legend, i am now out of time to call you stupid for today. I'll be back tonight or tomorrow to remind you that you AND permadeath are retarded.
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Good night Rhiannon.
[Zone] Legend@xsvlegend: Take care.

So...that's where we depart from tonight's conversation. I suppose it ended as well as it could, but there's still massive resistance to the main concept in the first place. And who can blame them? People who invest in things want to retain those things, be those things homes, jewelry, sweaters, or that really pretty unicorn mount that can outrun spirit wolves.

I still have no idea how one would mandate a permadeath guild, in a virtual game environment where permadeath does not exist. But that's not my problem, I'm not joining.

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